I don't have a problem with players announcing their hand. As I posted above, you can announce for 1 of 2 reasons. To move showdown along or to try to induce your opponent to muck a better hand. I have a problem with the second reason to declare. "Two pair" does nothing to move showdown along, especially on a paired board. There are hundreds of two pair combinations. For example if I hold 77 on AT882, I think "sevens" is a much better declaration than "two pair." It moves showdown along, even though I technically have two pair.

You said "Two pair is exactly what I have". Eh, exactly what you have is eights and deuces with an ace. You're being vaguer than exact. To what purpose?

They say two pair without tabling when there are straight and flush possibilities on the board.

Thinking there is no good reason to state you have two pair when you do have two pair is ludicrous.

If you have a set on a four diamond board while not holding a diamond, do you announce and table your set and then ask your opponents to check make sure they don't have a diamond before they muck? I think not.

Quit with that strawman. I didn't say you should say "I have eights and deuces. That means that any pocket pair beats me so table it." And you still haven't given a reason to say "two pair" instead of "eights and deuces." I can play that too. Saying there is no good reason to state you have eights and deuces when you do have eights and deuces is ludicrous.

I also don't have a problem with someone saying "tens up" or "tens and nines" on T9443, that's accurate. They don't have to add a caveat of "BTW, if you have an overpair, that means you win". It is pretty funny how often the same guy says "2 pair" with 32 on AT882 and "tens and nines" on T9443. I wonder why that is?

Why not? That would be most helpful and accurate.

So I can say I have 8's up on the AT882 board when I hold 32, but I can't say I have two pair? What is the difference?

If my opponent is first to show but is hesitant and I say I have 2 pair I am helping move showdown along. If I am first to show I can still say I have 2 pair, but I also should be turning them over.

You don't know the difference in saying "eights up" and "two pair"? It is much more likely that my opponent will know if his hand wins if I say "eights up" vs. saying "two pair". Eliminate for a moment the scummy/angle discussion. Very often the response to "two pair" is "which two?" We aren't speeding it up by saying "Two pair". Again, what is the benefit to the declarant to say "two pair" instead of being specific? Why do they never say "two pair" with AQ on AQ982?

Because, despite the continued strawman argument, I didn't say anywhere ever that we should be advising our opponents. My position is either 1) table your hand silently, or 2) table your hand while declaring in a manner that actually clarifies your hand in order to move beyond showdown to the next hand.

Maybe you enjoy sitting there while two dullards stare at each other at showdown and say "one pair" "me too, how high" "ten" "what's your kicker?" while you aren't earning tips. I do not.

Again, I don't think saying "two pair" is misdeclaring your hand. I support the rule that you forfeit the pot if your opponent mucks based on a misdeclaration. I wouldn't apply it to someone who says "two pair" on AT882 with 32. But I think the majority of players are doing something scummy there. If you disagree, see if the same guy says "two pair" with T9 on T9442 or even AQ on AQ973. They almost never do. Again, I ask, why is that?

I feel compelled to post this again.

+1000

Then say nothing.

It's only if you decide to open your mouth at all that you undertake an ethical (not in the rules, but ethical) duty to say non-misleading things.

It's six and one half dozen of the other (it means the same exact thing)
Don't worry what your opponent might or might not think after you accurately state the rank of your hand. You don't have to worry about someone thinking you're angling them, because there is no angle.

If you have one pair and state two pair trying to get someone to fold, that would be an angle. Do you see the difference?

TTHRIC
/

And multiple players have stated they expect a set.

If Villain were a new player or showed his T9 immediately after declaring, then there is a good case that he was being honest. And even when OP took his clearly identifiable hand and flipped it, if he had apologized for being unclear, I think that would be a good sign he just didn't know what he was doing.

But that's not what happened, is it? Did Villain act like someone who just realized his action could have been misinterpreted, or did he act exactly like he knew what the rules were (including the betting line rule) and took maximum advantage of his knowledge?

OK you want to be helpful and accurate. Just not too helpful and accurate.

If you are playing the board do you say so?

And this actually gives a baseline for what constitutes "helpful" for those who are having trouble understanding the concept.

The "show no u show" argument is going to be what happens if both people are stubborn. We can define "helpful" as any action which will get us to the next hand faster than that argument.

Arguing whether someone is technically correct is fine if this were a court of law. And there are a large number of accurate statements one can makr about the hand that would be 100% accurate but 0% helpful.

"I have the 17th nuts."

"Straight flush is good."

"I have the same hand Seat 6 had three hands ago."

So the accuracy of the declaration is not in question. The helpfulness is.

There is no showdown staredown when I'm dealing.

Just to defend my profession, it's actually not even a great argument in court. Indeed, lots of clients seem to believe that you win court cases like this, but you don't. There are both a ton of explicit doctrines in the law that say that you don't win cases with a hyper-technical interpretation of language (for instance, you can show fraud or unfair competition if the defendant made a deliberately misleading but absolutely true statement; contracts are given a reasonable interpretation to effectuate mutual intent, even if it isn't consistent with the technical plain meaning of the language; etc.) and the fact that judges and juries do everything they can to rule against litigants who rely on these sorts of arguments.

When a client walks in the door and tells me that her case turns on a very technical reading of some misleading thing she said or did, I tell her that she should strongly consider settling because these arguments are losers in court.

Yes.

And if you make any declaration other than either (1) nothing or (2) "I play the board", you are behaving very badly.

You're normally a great poster in this board, can you drop the strawman for the third time?

I have never advocated telling my opponent what to do. I advocate that once we are at showdown, that should happen quickly and accurately. If it is your turn to show, and instead you declare "two pair", that doesn't accomplish that goal. If you are declaring it with 23 on AT883, you add the factor that most of the time, you have some hope that your opponent will brainfart and muck JT or 77.

I usually just flip my hand without declaring, and would generally do so when playing the board as well. If the board is JT987, one big difference is announcing "jack high straight" is declaring your exact hand. "two pair" has dozens of possible rankings. "jack high straight" there = "eights and deuces" on the other hand. I don't declare "jack high straight" on that board either though.

I do also think you're a jackwagon if you were first on that board and say "straight", your opponent then shows, and then you show KQ. You announced that way so that you could see your opponent's hand, when you were supposed to show first and had the nuts.

"Eights and deuces" means the exact same thing as "two pair"? That's ridiculous. They both describe my hand, one much better than the other. Just like callypgian posted "if you have quads you are good" is also an accurate statement. Does it have a purpose?

If we get all in preflop, do you feel the same if I say "I have a pair" and "I have aces"? Exact same thing, though, right?

The only difference is one is a more detailed version of the other. Both mean exactly the same thing. Is "8's up" not two pair?

I'm not sure when this became a discussion about whether it speeds up the game or not. I'm certainly not arguing about speed. I'm simply saying that you can use whatever terminology you want as long as you aren't misrepresenting your hand.

You are saying you shouldn't use certain terminology. I am saying you can. The rules agree with me and I am biased towards the rules as, in my position, they are what I must go by in making a decision.

While I may agree that it is dumb to use certain terminology, the simple fact that it is allowed must apply.

When I say "I got the babysitter and her sister" with a A6TK3 board I don't expect you to know what the hell I got, but if you fold your AK because you think that means I got KQ and then I show you A6 and say well duh. That doesn't mean I did anything wrong.

What about the 99.9999999% of hands dealt that aren't dealt by you?

Like I said, I don't support a penalty for it, and wouldn't kill the hand for misdeclaration.

I'll give you what I think is an equivalent example.

On the river the pot is 4700 and blinds are 100/200. I throw a 5k chip and say "3". The majority of players presume this means 3000 (and the rules are starting to get that way, and IMO, they should). So the opponent throws in 3 1k chips. If I win, I stay silent. If I lose, I say "nope, I only meant 300" and take my 4700 change.

Under many rule sets, I'm "technically" correct. And tough titty for my newb opponent, even if they decide to never play casino poker again.

I can understand that player is within the rules, and know they can't get penalized, while also know they are scummy.

Hyper-technical? Correctly declaring your hand is now "hyper-technical"?

This is a non-equivalent example. In one case you are ambiguously defining action (which most rules define as the lowest legal bet, though I guess that is changing), in the other you are ambiguously defining your hand, which is really an unnecessary and superfluous step. In the first case, the other player must interpret your action in order to respond, in the second case, he does not.

Fair points for sure. I meant equivalent in a "doing something to get over on someone that I can defend as being within the rules" sense, as a moral equivalency.

I'm going to push back harder on this. It's not correct.

If I say that something costs $5 plus shipping and handling, and the shipping and handling fee is $100, I have lied. I know that you can say that what I said was technically true. I am aware of that.

But I also know that only a jerk who defends dishonest behavior would ever make that argument. Among normal people who have some sense of honor and honesty, saying $5 plus shipping and handling in that situation is a lie.

It's not "correct" to deliberately say misleading things to try to get another person to give up a winning hand at showdown after the bets are in. If your parents or your schools taught you those sorts of ethics, they miseducated you. If you picked them up yourself, you are not a moral person.

It isn't "correct". It is "hypertechnically true but misleading". And pretending you don't know the difference, and justifying it, just confirms a faulty ethical compass.