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07-22-2017 , 02:10 PM

donkatruck

old hand

Join Date: Jan 2013 Posts: 1,911

Three players involved in a showdown.

A covers B who covers C. So for chips A>B>C.

Hand goes all-in three ways on the turn.

A shows flopped set 4s.
C shows rivered flush.
B mucks.

C wins main pot. A wins side.

C says I want to see that hand of B, dealer retrieves cards from muck, show set of 5s.

Who wins the side pot?

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07-22-2017 , 02:14 PM

AngusThermopyle

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A and B only ones involved in the side pot.

I would say that the B's hand is dead unless it is A asking to see the hand. A gets the side pot.

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07-22-2017 , 02:37 PM

callipygian

slowrolled by tpiranha!

Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 19,880

Quote:

Originally Posted by AngusThermopyle

I would say that the B's hand is dead unless it is A asking to see the hand. A gets the side pot.

I would say this, plus dealer gets demerits for not controlling the action. This is a common situation and commonly solved by dealer announcing "A and B show for the side pot" and making sure C doesn't show until the side pot is settled first.

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07-22-2017 , 04:00 PM

steamraise

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Quote:

Originally Posted by donkatruck

dealer retrieves cards from muck, show set of 5s.

Who wins the side pot?

Set of 4s wins the side.

Dealer gets a kick in the nuts for pulling cards out of the muck.

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07-22-2017 , 05:44 PM

youtalkfunny

dumbest smart person his mom knows

Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 21,758

You guys are killing me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by callipygian

dealer gets demerits for not controlling the action. This is a common situation and commonly solved by dealer announcing "A and B show for the side pot" and making sure C doesn't show until the side pot is settled first.

What makes you think he didn't?

Quote:

Originally Posted by steamraise

Dealer gets a kick in the nuts for pulling cards out of the muck.

What makes you think he did?

Cal: I say "Let's do the side pot first," every single time. And almost every single time, I'm ignored, because no one wants to be accused of slow-rolling. Folks think THAT is important, far more important than listening to those words coming out of the dealer's mouth during a complicated showdown. Sad but true.

Steam: When B tosses his cards in facedown and concedes the pot, he has "mucked". It is not necessary for the cards to touch the muck pile to consider that hand "mucked"...and anyone can ask to see a mucked hand at showdown.

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07-22-2017 , 05:48 PM

youtalkfunny

dumbest smart person his mom knows

Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 21,758

Here's a thought: give the side pot to A, but count it first....then tell C he owes B that amount, because C tabling his hand before the sidepot was settled is clearly what prompted B to muck his cards.

Maybe THEN people will listen to me!

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07-23-2017 , 03:01 AM

DisRuptive1

adept

Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 964

Everyone in this thread is talking about a side pot but a side pot shouldn't have been built if all 3 players go in during the same betting round. In that case, you count down C's stack and award him that amount of chips from A and B plus the main pot. Then you count down B's stack and award him that amount of chips from A's stack. B only wins if his hand was retrievable from the muck.

Last edited by DisRuptive1; 07-23-2017 at 03:09 AM.

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07-23-2017 , 01:20 PM

Fore

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Dec 2014 Posts: 3,777

If they go all in for diff amounts why would there not be a side pot? You are precisely describing a side pot.

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07-23-2017 , 02:56 PM

venice10

Referee

Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 25,855

If you are going by RRoP, then the side pot remains with A. C is not the winner of the side pot, therefore his request is like any other person's at the table. Only the winning player of the pot asking to see the hand can cause the hand to be declared live and the pot transferred.

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07-24-2017 , 01:57 PM

#10

donkatruck

old hand

Join Date: Jan 2013 Posts: 1,911

Quote:

Originally Posted by venice10

This is basically what happened and I think it's the right I was player A and since I was on other side of table from B and C did not even realize there was a IWTSTH request or that B's cards where shown (I was lamenting to a neighbor about C beat me again for like the 9th time. She chipped up from $9 to about $450 after this hand).

I didn't learn about it until B left and the dealer asked the floor for verification on what happened.

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07-24-2017 , 05:26 PM

#11

steamraise

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Quote:

Originally Posted by youtalkfunny

What makes you think he did?

This?

Quote:

Originally Posted by donkatruck

dealer retrieves cards from muck

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07-25-2017 , 04:32 PM

#12

youtalkfunny

dumbest smart person his mom knows

Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 21,758

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07-25-2017 , 06:16 PM

#13

Suit

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 4,744

Quote:

Originally Posted by steamraise

Set of 4s wins the side.

Dealer gets a kick in the nuts for pulling cards out of the muck.

My exact thoughts.

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07-25-2017 , 06:38 PM

#14

steamraise

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I hate that C showed early causing the set of fives to fold.

I would turn C's hand back down and say "We're working on the side.".

But when B does fold, I bury his hand in the muck.

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07-26-2017 , 11:01 AM

#15

answer20

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Join Date: Feb 2013 Posts: 10,853

Quote:

Originally Posted by steamraise

Set of 4s wins the side.

Dealer gets a kick in the nuts for pulling cards out of the muck.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Suit

My exact thoughts.

Why are we jumping on the Dealer here? Per the Showdown rules a hand may be retrieved from the muck if any player dealt in the hand makes the request .. And since this request was made by a player 'not' involved in the side pot the hand is 'still' dead when shown and pot goes to Set of 4s Player. It, however, WAS live for the Main Pot and would've taken it down had it been shown as a better flush in this case.

A nice little sub-plot would be if the hand had shown as a winner ... I say Set of 4s still keeps the side but 'requester' loses his Main Pot to a now live hand.

I'm all for letting folks know about the "Once a month rule" (as I call it) and the ramifications if the priveledge is overused, but why knock the Dealer for complying with the rules? GL

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07-26-2017 , 11:28 AM

#16

albedoa

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 5,392

Quote:

Originally Posted by answer20

Per the Showdown rules a hand may be retrieved from the muck if any player dealt in the hand makes the request

Maybe if it's identifiable, but it shouldn't be identifiable. (Otherwise dealer gets another KITN.) Which showdown rules are you referring to? RRoP does not say that.

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07-26-2017 , 12:19 PM

#17

answer20

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Robert's Rules Version 11 is what I've been looking at for some time. Is there a newer version?

Page 16, Item 5 of the Showdown Rule ...

Of course there's always interpretation of everything, maybe I'm reading this in favor of what I want to see. GL

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07-26-2017 , 01:38 PM

#18

dinesh

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 4,411

Quote:

5. Any player who has been dealt in may request to see any hand that was eligible to participate in the showdown, even if the opponent's hand or the winning hand has been mucked. However, this is a privilege that may be revoked if abused. If a player other than the pot winner asks to see a hand that has been folded, that hand is dead. If the winning player asks to see a losing player’s hand, both hands are live, and the best hand wins.

I would agree that this refers to a hand which has been mucked (I.e. folded) at showdown without showing, but has not yet been put into the muck pile. (Note that it switched from mucked to folded midway through the text.)

Once it is in the muck pile, it should be unidentifiable. The dealer should not ever be digging in the muck pile for any reason for cards that are unidentifiable. The floor should almost never be doing so either.

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07-26-2017 , 02:38 PM

#19

chillrob

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Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 20,921

The wording of that rule is definitely bad; no one should ever be allowed to see a hand that has been "folded", which is totally different from being mucked at showdown.

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07-26-2017 , 03:04 PM

#20

callipygian

slowrolled by tpiranha!

Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 19,880

Quote:

Originally Posted by callipygian

Quote:

Originally Posted by youtalkfunny

What makes you think he didn't?

Because it's not mentioned and because people deliberately ignoring the dealer tend to get mentioned?

Quote:

I say "Let's do the side pot first," every single time. And almost every single time, I'm ignored

I think you're doing the right thing, and I find it surprising that you get ignored so often.

About half of the dealers in my area say what you say. And most of the time, people are respectful of the dealer's request, say, 75%, with the other 25% being some kind of disorganized free for all. The other half of the dealers don't say it, and while on occasion players take it upon themselves to be clear, let's say that 75% of the time you get the free for all.

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07-26-2017 , 03:20 PM

#21

Suit

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 4,744

Quote:

Originally Posted by answer20

Why are we jumping on the Dealer here?

Because the dealer pulled a mucked hand out of the muck pile. This should only be done by the floor. If the dealer is 100% sure which two cards they are then the dealer needs to be trained on how to properly muck a hand.

Either way, its a KITN to the dealer.

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07-26-2017 , 04:53 PM

#22

answer20

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Suit

I can live with both of those points (coach 'em up) .. I was actually at a table the other day where the Dealer warned the 'requesting' player that the hand would be live if turned over. The player promptly changed his mind. GL

PS ... Please comment on my 'Dealer pushing board cards at showdown' thread!

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07-31-2017 , 12:53 PM

#23

psandman

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Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 15,829

Quote:

Originally Posted by DisRuptive1

We don;t even need to debate whether a side pot should be phyically built or not. There is a side pot even if the dealer doesn't physically set it up as a seperate pot. And the side pot should be settled first.

Quote

08-03-2017 , 05:38 AM

#24

DetroitJunkie

grinder

Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 648

Quote:

Originally Posted by youtalkfunny

Quote:

Originally Posted by answer20

A nice little sub-plot would be if the hand had shown as a winner ... I say Set of 4s still keeps the side but 'requester' loses his Main Pot to a now live hand.

Quote

08-03-2017 , 07:54 PM

#25

DisRuptive1

adept

Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 964

Quote:

Originally Posted by psandman

There is a side pot even if the dealer doesn't physically set it up as a seperate pot. And the side pot should be settled first.

I disagree. Proper procedure when the side pot hasn't been built is to resolve the chips from the winning hand, resolve the main pot, then resolve the side pot (if any exists).

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