Question on calling a tournament Rebuy vs Re-Entry.

Went to a tournament the other day and I ended up showing up after the tourney started. I knew I would need to wait for a seat to open up. No biggy.

The tournament was billed as a Re-Entry. I was under the impression that during a re-entry tournament, the player who busted had to leave the seat (being that you were put out) and go re-enter the tournament and would end up at the end of the line of people waiting a seat.

Where as a rebuy, you would remain in your seat when you busted and maintain the status of a player still in the game.

The reason I ask is due to someone busting and getting back in ahead of those waiting. When I asked for clarification, I was told that the person who busted had priority because they already had a seat. I was under the impression that they lost the seat once they busted.

It didn't really matter as they had a few more show up and we were seated about 5 mins later but I wanted to know your thoughts.

I know, room dependent, but I thought there was a clear definition of rebuy vs re-entry.

You are correct that it is room dependent. I don't know how other rooms do it, but my room gives re-entries priority over alternates. You were an alternate in your case.

Interesting question and thread. I've never considered this issue because I've been lucky enough to not have encountered it.

I'm of course open to being convinced otherwise, but I'd slightly favor the reentry players over the alternates. My guess is the reentry guy would leave/play cash as opposed to waiting behind alternates, whereas alternates likely arrived too late for registration, registered anyway, and already are playing cash while they wait. So in my initial thinking, there's no incentive to reward them.

Exactly. The incentive is for them to show up on time so as not to risk waiting or potentially not getting a seat.

I completely agree with your opinion on the wording of these two options. That being said, it'll all be room dependent. On the other hand, we had a tournament locally here in Detroit that was billed as a rebuy tournament that really played like a re-entry as you described it (once you busted, you went to the end of the line and alternates took your seat). Pretty much everyone complained and the idiot poker room manager couldn't understand why (FWIW, it was relatively low stakes and some super agro players were shoving early to build a stack thinking they could just rebuy)

First off, let me state that the situation could have been avoided if the tournament had opened up another table and spread the players around evenly instead of filling up tables to the max especially if they were expecting late entries.

I’ve played on line for bit back when you could easily from the US. I remember when Full Tilt introduced their re-entry tournament, and it was when you were busted, you had to give up your seat and if you re-entered you ended up at the end of the line behind those waiting to get a seat. This is what led me to question what had transpired and my confusion.
After reading your responses this morning, I had to see if there was a written definition of a Re-entry tournament. I found an old Full Tilt page with a definition-
http://www.fulltilt.com/poker/tourna...rect=1#reentry

• When you lose all your chips in a re-entry tournament, you are eliminated from the event and receive a place in the finishing order.
• In a rebuy tournament, when you rebuy you keep your seat. In a re-entry tournament, you will receive a new seat, and will be seated like any other new player, usually ending up at a different table.
• In a re-entry tournament, each entry is considered a new registration in that event, so you pay a new fee as if you were a new player joining the tournament. Re-entries also earn reward points for the fees paid.

Highlighted states that you are a new registration into the tournament and are joining as a new player. So when the busted player re-enters the tournament, he should be at the end of the line just like someone who just walks in. Whomever goes to the cage first gets first priority on the first available seat. It not the new players fault that the busted player lost all of their chips and eliminated themselves from the tourney. Maybe the player who busted should of thought before they threw their last chip in and lost. This method keeps the game from being a shove fest like you get with a rebuy tournament
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From your replies , what you are advocating for is a punishment for those who do not show up when the tournament starts. My question to you is, why are you punishing players for doing something that perfectly legal like registering for a tournament after it starts. The tournament in question had a late entry until the 12th level. Being “too late” really isn’t the issue because too late to register is after the 12th level. The player who busted is now also re-entering yet you are giving them special treatment by allowing them to skip the alternate’s line. By doing this you are essentially making this a rebuy tourney where you have to get to zero chips before you get to rebuy.

Example-(I know this is an extreme example)

If you have a tournament and the tables are filled and everyone who bust re-enters the alternates will never get a seat due to no seats opening up and everyone going back to their original seats because there are no alternate seats to go to. The only difference from a true rebuy is you have to have zero chips to re-enter and you get to pay the full juice (tournament fees) to re-enter. No one is afraid of busting because there is no consequence except the fee and it just becomes a rebuy tournament.

Another issue I have with this is, how long do you hold to seat open for someone? The player who busted has until the 12 level to re-enter. What if they want to take a break but said they are going re-enter? So all the alternates need to wait on someone who could be gone for a while? Let’s say they “loop” someone in for this player and no one bust after an hour. Does the looped in player have to give their seat up to the break/busted player because they have priority?

In general, I feel that once you’ve busted you are no longer in the tournament and therefor need to re-enter as a new player with no special privileges or priority over any other player that is already registered. If it were a rebuy, you don't have to worry about becoming an alternate because you are never out of the tournament until you decline to rebuy.

Either way, I’ll remember how it’s handled at my local casino for next time.

There are two ways of looking at it, from the standpoint of the player and the standpoint of the cardroom

The cardroom wants to build up its player base, and in that pursuit, may feel motivated to protect the players that are more motivated or dependable. Or they may feel that one strategy may help cultivate more cash game action. At no point are they obligated to consider what seems most fair to the player (other than the fact that if they are blatantly unfair to extremes, they will lose their client base)

You can look at it from the standpoint of a late registering player and think that it is unfair (the guys who actually got their early enough to secure a seat would disagree with you), but it doesn't really matter. The room is free to do what it wants (within the boundaries defined by the gaming commission of course).

I happen to agree that a player busting out should go to the back of the queue, but if that isn't the rooms policy, so be it.

Highlighted also comes from an online poker website. VERY different than a live casino poker tournament.

To answer your question, you say it is perfectly legal and I agree with you. The problem is that sometimes the tournament will start with X number of tables and we generally leave as many open seats as we can so as not to make tables play short handed. Sometimes those seats fill up (with late entries) and when you show up late you become an alternate because they filled. Just because we allow late registration doesn't mean we guarantee you will get a seat if you register late. By being late you take the risk that the seats will be full and we may or may not be able to open another table for you. We also may or may not get you in as an alternate. I don't see a reason to punish a player that was on time and entered the tournament that wants to re-enter just so that I can get a player that showed up late into a seat. I want to encourage players to be on time for many reasons. Personally the biggest reason is that it is a pain in the ass to try to anticipate how many late entries I will have and make players play short handed to start. This pisses people off and encourages them to come late as well so they don't have to play short. I miss the days when registration closed at go time. My life was much easier.

But the guy who got there early to secure his seat no longer has a seat due to the fact that he busted out.

But like you said, it doesn't really matter. Room dependent.

The room defines him as having first rights to the vacant seat.

I am not agreeing with the rule, the rooms I play at (as will as the occasional WPT, WSOP, and PNIA events at these rooms) treat a busted out player as a new player with now priority to a seat. I think that is more fair and appropriate.

I am just trying to emphasize that rooms are under no obligation to do what the player feels is fair. As long as what they do is legal within the boundaries defined by the gaming commission, they can do what ever they want to maximize their long term profits. Sometimes that feels unfair to the casual or occasional player. Your only options are to accept it, adapt to it, or find another room. You can register a complaint to the room manager, but they will only change if they feel that is affecting their bottom line.

That is fine, but quite honestly I don't know why you call that reentry and not rebuy. It sounds like a rebuy to me. (I get that there is the issue of counting entries and how many spots get paid out but even if you want each rebuy to count as an entry for calculting how many spots get paid I still feel rebuy is a better description of what is going here.)

Rebuy with House Vig.

Plus, "rebuy" got a bad name while "reentry" seems to be the "in thing".

Sorry if I missed it, but what is the priority that is given? Same seat? Front of the line once you pay the cage? Treating as a re-buy but saying re-entry? GL

My room takes vig out of rebuys. I don't think rebuys are inherently vig free.

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We would generally be talking about same seat because priority is only relevant if there is a waiting list and if there is a wait there are no other seats (unless multiple people are busting at the same time)

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We don't take the juice on rebuys, but we do on re-entry. We also differentiate between the two by allowing rebuys without having to lose all of your chips. We also don't give a full starting stack for rebuys. Re-entry also allows us to move players around if we need to without the usual required difference in empty seats.

As mentioned above, the topic here revolves around alternates and when there are alternates, there are no other seats available, so a re-entry would not be able to change seats.

Is the way I do it the best way? I don't know. I very rarely ever have alternates, so not many complaints to deal with. If we were continuously maxing out I may have to look into it. IMHO if you allow re-entry, you should give the re-entry priority over alternates. If I tell someone that wants to re-enter that they are going to have to go to the end of the alternate list my bet is they will just leave, whereas if I tell an alternate they will get a seat if it becomes available they will maybe jump in a cash game or go play slots/BJ while they wait.

Without having an abundance of alternates I see your spot.

The most glaring case I have in my area is a 26 table room holding a 1-day $400 buy-in that starts at 10AM. During the last one there were 260 registered before 9AM with over 70 alternates before 10AM. They allow 1 re-entry ...

It's an interesting decision as to whether you allow a player to re-enter 'in front' of that many players somehow.

They ended up with 415 'entries' with about 20 of those being re-entries. The players barely made it into Level 8 with around 16BB at the end of the list. This tournament when 13 hours and ended in a 6-way chop. Cash tables weren't open until 4PM when tournament tables started breaking.

As we state so many times here .. check with each new room as to their specific twists to TDA or other when you get there. GL

When I'm running a tournament in this situation (I am told to give "some priority" to re-entry), I generally will go 2-1 ratio of re-entries to new entrants. I keep a ratio for the simple reason that I don't ever want to be tempted to show favoritism when I have two lines - I theoretically could fudge the line to help or hinder someone. So I keep a straight ratio and track it in my head while I'm seating, and am clearly communicating to the players when they are one away and up next if they are within earshot.

My preference would be to alternate the two lines, but I don't wholly write the rules.

While I grew-up being told "re-buys" are done at the same seat and "re-entry" means getting up and re-entering (maybe back to the same seat, but probably to a different seat--- and certainly NOT ahead of anyone who was waiting)..... Maybe not the best solution, but my local casino currently handles:

In most tournaments you get a paper receipt/seat-ticket. Once seated, you are allowed one re-buy (assuming the re-buy period is still open - which is usually through the first break). Meaning, if you bust, you can re-buy at your seat (get your ticked stamped by the dealer) and get your chips. If you bust again (after 1 re-buy), you have to go back-up to tournament desk and re-enter (as long as re-entry period is still open)- You go to the "back of the line" if there's any wait list- you don't get any priority over anyone already waiting...

As you probably guessed - that same "re-buy" receipt can also be used as an "add on" at any time through the re-buy period (instead of a rebuy).... So, you have the option of one add-on or re-buy for each tournament entry.

There are (of course) exceptions or modifications to this approach for some different tournaments. For example, in bounty tournament, there's no "at table re-buys". Or, some very low $$ buy-in tournaments where they allow unlimited re-buys at the table (to keep the tournament moving during the re-buy period).

I don't really see why this issue is room-dependent. Couldn't the TDA come up with a definition of re-entry that is consistent from room-to-room. They define many other terms. If players needed to learn what every term means at every different venue it would be quite a cluster.

If a player who busts is to be treated as a new player, then I think he should be at the back of the line. If that's not going to happen, then it seems to be more like a rebuy tournament. The only difference being that he can be sent to a different table.

I think it's more tournament 'type' than room dependent. When it comes to 'daily' tournaments rooms should cater to the regs as much as they can while remaining fair to the masses.

If it means a player 'will' re-enter (re-buy) when made easy v leaving the room then it's best to steer them back into the tournament.

When it comes to larger or a visiting tournament 'series' the rules may be tighter/different and the regs will need to be made aware of the differences.

TDA can do all they want, rooms can still adjust for their own 'benefit'. GL