If villain were a fish, you'd be a dick and would be losing money by forcing him to show.

A winning reg shouldn't have any problem with it, and villain here seems like kind of a d-bag for making a big deal out of it.

Congrats on moving up! You'll find with every level you progress, customs you thought were standard seem flipped on their heads. Keep an open mind.

It doesn't really matter what we think. We're not at the table donating money to you.

If Villain thinks you're a dick, then you're a dick, regardless of intent. Poker is a game of incomplete information. Based on his incomplete information, he thinks you're a dick. Based on how you want to maximize your profits, you can choose how to adjust your behavior to give him what he wants.

The others at your table aren't your competitors, they're your customers. Put yourself on a higher level. Hold yourself to a higher standard. Let your customers do things that you wouldn't do. View their lack of sophistication as a good thing. Don't do anything to get them out of their mental state of happy spewage.

"Yeah, I have a goofy two pair. Missed draw? If I didn't catch that lucky deuce, I probably would've folded."

Or something like that, base it on your relationship. Right now you're concerned about the specific information of the hand. But if you relax from that sharp focus and view the larger picture, he might not only tell you his cards, but tell you his thought process. He might even share the most important information of all, which is what he thought you had.

Go a level deeper. Get him on your side so that you can get MORE information. Spend a little to gain a lot.

It is on this hand, as he told you he was weak.

Here's my reason for showing my cards immediately at showdown: I want the pot.

If you're showing failed bluff-catchers too often, then you're calling too much. But this is not a case where you should be afraid to show, because you clearly have the best hand, so that reasoning doesn't apply here anyway.

Don't worry about what others "should" do while in a hand with you. Let them flail and throw fits. That's up to them.

Act like a gentleman. That's up to you.

At higher stakes than 1/2, it's fairly common for showdown to go like this:

Bettor: "I missed."
Caller: "I have an Ace."
Bettor mucks.
Caller shows to verify.

Done and done. People are either trapping or bluffing. At least one person at showdown is fairly certain where he stands in the hand.

Right now you're at a level where nobody really knows what's going on, which is why we have these staredowns, but keep at it and you'll improve.

That's the backup safety net. I know you're in the UK, and you've imported rules and are trying to follow them. But these rules are a record of precedent, not a guide for play. They're how we handle it when things break down. The general rule of showdown is that the person who has the best hand is encouraged to show first. That's how it goes almost every single time at the highest stakes. Shoot for that.

It doesn't matter if those around you follow suit. As you strive to be a more sophisticated player than those at your table, you'll start to see this as a good thing.

Stop and think about what you're saying. You're saying if you show first, then he has a larger chance of realizing he misread his hand?

Once his cards are tabled, it doesn't matter if he mis-read. If he tables first, then his hand ABSOLUTELY plays. If you table first, then there's a chance he'll muck before realizing that he won or that it's a chopped pot.

If he tables his cards, they speak, regardless of what he thinks he has. Your logic on this is backwards.

It's not a tournament.

Careful --Both of these are rules which exist in some places, but not everytwhere.

I don't always agree with Pfap, but I do here x 1000.
I really, really wish that the former internet-only players, and other players who've only played 1/2 or lower live stakes, would read and learn from the excerpts above. The rules about showing are there to be enforced if necessary, but they hardly ever need to be in a high-stakes game with experienced players. (There are definitely exceptions, but they are exceptions.)
Basically, I see 1/2NL as (mostly) newcomers to live poker learning bad habits from each other and from TV. I truly do not mean this to insult anyone (I started playing when "nickel-dime-quarter" was serious money, and I acquired a lot of bad habits early on, which I had to learn to lose), but the game plays much better (both experientially and financially) when people play quickly and courteously, and don't obsess about invoking the letter of the rules to try to gain or protect every shred of info.

+1 with MJ88

I don't normally see showdowns have these kind of issues in the higher limit games but at lower limits (1/2) small buy in tourneys I see it sometimes.
I have always felt that at a showdown both players basically deserve to see the other's hands. They both paid for that info.

Thanks Pfapfap and everyone who commented - some really great posts and I picked up some knowledge. I'm not moving up full time yet - £1/£1 is still a bit more profitable for me in terms of hourly (well, less variance, I guess). It's a fantastic learning experience tho - to be honest I'm not quite sure why the game plays so much bigger than £1/£1... Seems like it should be pretty much the same...

I have a full time job, so poker isn't my livelihood. But that doesn't mean I'm at the tables just to gambool. How great is it to have a hobby that can not only pay for itself, it can make a bit of spending money to boot? But because poker is also a hobby, I also want to enjoy the experience - I dont want to be a jerk, you know - I dont want to be 'that guy'. So thanks to the comments in this thread I'll have a bit more context in which to think about things - and focus on keeping the game moving...

As it turned out I ran into the guy tonight as I was leaving, and he said hi immediately. I apologized for 'being a dick' and he said, 'no I really over reacted, my fault - don't worry about it. You played the hand really well'. We did a bit of small talk, wished each other luck and i headed home. So i guess there was a bit of a good ending...

I've found this thread to be a fascinating read...thanks for starting it, Dragon. My view...no one could rightfully call you a 'dick' as played. The worst would be rules nit, but you were well within your rights. That said, I couldn't agree more with Pfap's commentary. He laid out an approach we should all aspire to.

In my own (limited) personal experience, when I call a river and someone says "you're good," in almost every circumstance I'll roll my cards over. If I ever have a case where I roll them over and they then show a winner (hasn't happened yet), regardless of the hand's strength, I'll then become a rules nit in the future against that player. I can think of one exception where I didn't roll right away. Here was that situation. Player to my right had been exploiting weakness for several orbits. If multiple players went to a flop and it checked to him in late position, he'd steal-bet, and take it down. Frankly, he was playing very good poker. This session, I had been fairly card-dead, but was waiting for an opportunity to counter-exploit. Finally, with three limpers in front of him, he limps from the CO and I limp with 66 from the button. Seven of us to a flop of 7-5-3 rainbow. First five players check, he bets 20 into 14, I call and a blind calls. Turn J (no flush draws), blind checks, he fires 40, I call, blind folds. River pairs the 3, he fires 100, I tank-call, figuring bet size was such that he didn't want a call. He immediately says "You're good" to which I respond "I'm not so sure...show or muck." He repeats "You're good" and I repeat "It's a thin call...show or muck." He clearly doesn't want to show the hand, but lifts them in front of him, enabling me to see that he had KQ off. I insta-roll my pocket 6s, and he mucks. He's spared the exposure to the rest of the table on how he's been playing, and I scoop a pot. In this room, btw, even if the other player mucks, you've got to show the hand to scoop the pot. Now, you might think from this hand that I'm a bit of a calling station. But frankly, I was going on my read, although I was far from certain.

So if you're the last one with a hand and you refuse to show who gets the pot?

It gets shipped to me.

This has been asked at tables I've sat at, and never really answered well. I suspect the floor would be called, would make a big ordeal of telling the player to table his hand, and if the player refused, I have no idea what would happen! Might be worth finding out some time!

this has to be the single biggest waste of time at the tables, its very frustrating to the true players, for dealers, cost the casino money and brings down the hands per hour. i dont find this goes on to much at higher stakes as it does in the 2-5,1/3 and low limit games.

if it gets really bad just protect your cards and call the pit, over and over and over till the guy leaves or gets tossed.

i find it funny that some guys will refuse to show cause they are embarrassed. i snap show all my called bluffs its great for all kinds of reasons, makes me look like a donkey to all the ppl who dont pay attention,then they ship the goodness over later

make a stand my fellow 2p2ers and get all these time wasters off the tables

No in most cases he's way more interested in not having to show than you are in exactly what he had. That's why we don't force him to show.

If you're in a room where cards must be shown at showdown and you're the last one with cards and you refuse to show you get ass raped, we take all the money from your wallet and you get banned for life because you've failed at life.

If you don't want to have to show a hand at showdown to claim the pot don't play in such a room.

I think the rule is kinda stupid and I'd argue against it but I'm generally too busy stacking chips after showing down my hero call with A high.

Oh and FWIW I've frequently seen the exact showdown dance that pfap describes at 1/2.
A - What do you have?
B - Pair
A - Pair is good (mucks)
B - Shows

You were a dick imo especially after he indicated that you were good if you had any part of the board and you still insisted he showed.
Just flip it over, asking 1) slows the game down while you guys debate over who is going to show first 2) pisses someone off(who may even be someone you have to deal with in the future) and 3) is poor live poker etiquette. You really don't gain a whole lot out of getting him to show so just don't do it imo.

Against good players:

Make him show first. If he mucks, wait for the dealer to ship you the pot and then muck your cards without showing as well.

Against fish:

When he says "your good", show your hand and make some self deprecating remark about what a lucky donk you are for playing Q2.

In all London casinos the winner has to show their hand. I think this might actually speed up the showdown as the winner has to show their hand regardless of who mucks.

Defenatley not a dick, if you call, you have the right to see his hand. That's what a freaking call is, calling to see what the other hand is you have put your money in against is, is'nt it? Imo this etiquette that people talk of is a jhoke, i understand the levelling of it all but if you don't want your hand to been seen, don't bet so it can be, then after being called say it's bad etiquette to see my cards even though you paid to, wtf?

These situations are the most tilting part of live poker. When called, just table your hand, or throw it in the muck. Don't take an extra 15 seconds giving a speech about what you have.

Players that I have a solid read on and are easy pickings, I don't mind showing first.

Players that I don't have a read on and need to acquire more information, I will just sit patiently until they either show or muck.

There is absolutely no emotion involved in this and I keep emotion out of my voice. I simply say, "It's your action sir, show or muck."

Now I do something interesting when I miss my draw and I'm first to show. I SHOW.

The reason I show is because I want to acquire more information on my villain. What did he call me with, TPGK, TPWK, Mid pair, bottom pair, was he likewise drawing.

Too often players think that showing is "bad" because you don't want to give information away. That is only one piece of the puzzle. The other piece of the puzzle is who can use the information more effectively. If you are the better player and can use the information more effectively than your opponent, then it is in your advantage to show (when you miss) just so you can see exactly what your opponent has.

If I know my hand is good, I'll usually go for a fast roll, but when I'm curious about what the villain had, I usually just say "I called you." The bettor is the one that's suposed to expose their cards first, unless they muck.

PFAP- great post, but I would recommend one change to your sequence.

Bettor: "I missed"
Caller: "I have an Ace" and shows it.
Bettor: "nice hand" and mucks.

It's just never a good idea, IMO, to muck just based on the verbal declaration. Too many times I've seen honest people make a mistake ( "I have a straight" oops, no I don't).

So when the caller decides to show first as a courtesy to the bettor, he should show at the same time he declares. Then the bettor mucks. Quick and Easy.

For some people it is. I hear this a lot: "Well, I gotta see," which is often followed by a muck and a, "Yeah, that's what I figured." Calling to see is a -EV mentality.

I call when I have the best hand and want to scoop the pot. I'm perfectly happy ALWAYS showing my hand and NEVER seeing anybody else's hand.

Fully agree, this is good policy.

I don't think calling to see is -Ev mentality at all, if i make a call it's because i think it's a long term +Ev call and is also +Ev for me to see what the villian has bet on the river for, whether it be a bluff, for value, thin value or blocking.

Personally, I'd prefer the dealers step in here. Train them to encourage
the called hand to show. If that does not work, the floor should warm
them and even boot them for a day if necessary.

One approach is to simply sit still and say NOTHING. If the dealer tries
to get me to show, inform him that it is not my turn to act.

But most of the time its really better to show right away. Someone
may misread either hand and muck a winner. I've seen it done. I
even did it once myself. I knew before it hit the table, but it was too
late.

But enough with this "was a a dick?" You should never need to feel
bad for asking to see the hand. You called and if that's what you want,
you've paid for it. Playing by the rules is not being a dick.

I do step in. The rules state that the player with the best hand is encouraged to show first, so I say "cards please" and give it a beat for that to happen. When it doesn't, I go to the last aggressor or first action, depending. I tap the table while saying "show or throw" half a dozen times, with the player either staring at his opponent or spacing out on everything completely, until someone else finally shows and we can move on.

There are so many better ways to get information. I can't force a player to turn over his hand. It's much easier if I show him a hand to beat. The rules state that if you think you have a winner, you should show. By refusing to show and instead insisting that he follow "the rules," you are, in fact, going against the rules.

(Not you specifically, as you said you usually show and advocate this practice, but "you" in general.)