I haven't played much poker recently. Maybe the following story illustrates why. Last night I went to an Indian casino 30 minutes away and played 1/3 NL last night. I don't play here regularly and I'm not familiar with house rules.

Earlier I'd tried to correct the dealer about the size of my bet. I thought he was off by a dollar but it was my mistake. The player on my right tried to tell me that there was only one dealer per table and I shouldn't have spoken up. I just ignored him. Later he moved about 4 seats to my left. Late 40's, lots of tattoos, tough-guy biker type.

I ended up flopping top pair with a gutshot against him on n 8-5-4 board. I bet the flop and shoved the turn, and he called my all-in by tossing a single white chip onto the felt in front of him. The dealer announced "Call" and dealt the river. The player never announced call and never put any more chips out past the line. I hesitated in showing down my hand because he never said call and I felt like my hand was probably good - he was terrible and called any reasonable bet with any kind of draw. I asked him, "Did you call?" He nodded yes but did not say call. There is still a single white chip in front of him and I was all-in for about $80. One of the other players spoke up and said, "He called." I said, "Can you please say call or put the money in?" and everyone included the dealer jumped on me. Villain said, "The dealer announced call, didn't you hear him?" I said, "It doesn't matter what the dealer says". Then I got a chorus of "He called, show your cards" etc. from the dealer and the rest of the table, and they were basing it nothing more than him throwing out a single white chip.

So how far do you push this? Do you just sit there until he puts the money out no matter who is yelling at you?

It was a pretty bad experience. This is honestly why I don't enjoy poker as much as I used to.

FWIW he had J-6 and caught a J on the turn. After I gave up (I did not stick to my guns here) he looked dejected, said how much is it, counted out all the chips, put them out, was JUST about to muck and then rolled over the winner.

I think you're being overly paranoid. The dealer said "call" which tells you that this is a place where OCC is commonplace. When he deals the river and villain doesn't object, you can feel pretty safe that there's no angle going on. Honestly, just table your hand. 99+% of the time the villain will pay if he loses. It's really not worth the effort to worry about the miniscule chance that you will get screwed.

You can ask for clarification if the dealer hasn't said anything but once the dealer says it, you're covered.

you are being paranoid. its impossible for him to do this more than once at any casino because he will be 86'ed if he loses and doesn't pay the bet.

What are you protecting against here? Are you concerned that the player will not pay off the call and claim he only called $1 worth of the bet? I think that once the dealer confirms it is a call, you are fine. You must conform to the rules of the poker room and this is one of the rules. Demanding that the player adheres to YOUR rules of saying "call" or putting all of the chips out there is an extreme request when people aren't playing at YOUR house.

His slow roll in the end is a dickhead move but those people are out there and you'll have the last laugh if you stack him later.

I agree with OP. At least make the player say call, if not push the chips out. There have been many stories on the site of a player making a 1-chip call, then refusing to pay up when they lose. While the casino may ban that player, these stories often end with the villain keeping his money, as the casino will say that they cannot force him to pay you.

In fact, stop the dealer from dealing the river, until the call is confirmed by the villain. Not physically stop the dealer, but tell him to stop. Ask for confirmation from the player himself, not just the dealer announcing it. While the other replies are correct, and almost all of the time you will get paid if you win, there is nothing wrong with protecting yourself.

TBH, rooms that permit the one-chip call should stop. They should require the player to at least verbalize the call. It's one thing in a tournament, where the house literally can force the player to pay you off. I mean, they can eject him from the event, and then give you the chips. But in cash games, there have been so many spots where a villain just grabs the chips and leaves, and the house tells the victim, sorry, we can't do anything about it.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

The angle is that if they know the room will not enforce OCC, they throw out one chip to see if you know that. If both people are regs who know full well OCC is enforced next hand already.

And how would that change anything? No sarcasm intended. Guy verbalizes, then won't pay. Sounds like you're in the same boat, to me.

This is where Koko turned from being right to being very wrong. Why are you allowing the dealer to deal the river if you don't believe the call to be legitimate? What do you expect to happen if it is not legitimate?

The other players were ragging on you for being socially unaware, not for trying to protect yourself.

^^

This

One (just one) of the dealers in the casino I go to, makes the players push their chips out before continuing the action. I like this and wish it was enforced by the floor for every all-in declaration.

That said, I've never seen anyone fail to pay after tossing out a single chip and I would continue after the dealer confirms the action. But I would always get the dealer to confirm in any sizeable pot (if you want to angle me for $10 w/e).

The sequence of events went pretty fast once he tossed the chip in. The dealer said "Call", burned and turned. It would guess it happened in under 2 seconds. I suppose I could have reacted immediately and spoke up, but this is a "Should I speak up about this?" type of a situation, rather than a situation where I would, for example, immediately speak up to stop a premature burn and turn. This is course exactly the reason why I felt it was a worthy discussion - because it is not a clear-cut decision.

Having an additional card to be dealt provides considerably more protection - I hadn't considered that when I started the thread. If there is another card to come and the dealer verbalizes the call, burns and turns, villain has a lot less ground to stand on in arguing that he hadn't actually called (if this villain were going to do that) simply because he didn't speak up when the dealer burned and turned.

However... since this thread is about protecting ourselves from potential angle-shooters, what if the situation were a little different and the action was on the river, and villain tossed out a single white chip to call an all-in? How far do you take it with villain, the dealer, and the rest of the table before you just concede and show your hand?

I realize that I will probably never in my lifetime see an incident where a player throws in one chip and then refuses to pay. I concede that it's rare, but it does happen from time to as shown by more than one discussion in here.

No problem with what OP did. I don't think the dealer saying call means anything here. I see this as very similar to a dealer mis-declaring a bet. What the dealer says doesn't matter, you're on the hook for the full bet.

IMO the difference here is the clarity. Villain has no argument like claiming he was pre-tipping, it was an accident, etc. I'm not saying those are good arguments, but there's a possibility that the floor will rule in Villain's favor. Using this logic, you shouldn't table your hand until the player puts the full amount of the call in and the dealer drags it into the pot. I mean, what if V puts in the call, you table the nuts, then V takes his money back and runs? Sounds like you're in the same boat.

If you're playing somewhere you play a lot, you should know how they rule on OCC. If you're playing somewhere you don't play a lot, I think it's fine to confirm with the dealer that villain did indeed call. Once the dealer confirms call, you're as covered as you can be.

Unfortunately there are people here pushing the mantra of one chip isn;t a call and telling players that if they don;t protect themselves from the one chip call the opponent might not pay and the casino will tell them tough luck.

I am all about players protecting themselves but their is a point where it is ridiculous. If the casino would allow the player to not pay this bet ... well you can;t protect yourself ... because this casino will allow the player to take back the bet and walk out ...... beauxe of they think they can;t enforce their rules then what rule would they enforce?

The action was clear and you had no reason to not think the call was binding.....,

Is it really? You claim to have not known whether the call was legitimate. That's about as clear a reason as any to speak up.

It makes more sense for this to be an "events happened too fast for me to process" situation. Otherwise, what changed between the time when you weren't sure whether to speak up and when you did speak up?

This is TwoPlusTwo where each of us thinks our **** smells good and we would have acted differently from the OP in every thread, but I assure you that the decision to confirm a call that I believe might be illegitimate is 100% clear-cut.

I am not paranoid enough to have done it here, but I would if it were ever a question.

I have seen on more than 1 occasion, in LV, gaming being called in and handcuffs were applied. Amounts over $500 (iirc) are felonies in Nv when it comes to paying off bets.

Actions only need to be clear. And use of "all in" and "call" plaques work well since the cameras will not pick up voice. Even with the non use of plaques, statements, along with the video can support gaming's decision to cite a player and take them to jail.

Mostly it comes down to strong dealers, strong shift managers.

You asked him "did you call?"; you probably shouldn't have. The best way to phrase that kind of a question is "what was your action"? In many situations it's better to ask it that way.

That is true in NV, but it is rarely true in other jurisdictions.

Me neither.

On the other hand I have seen someone say "call" which was then confirmed by the dealer, the board was run and the player grabbed his chips and walked out of the casino.

I have certainly played a lot less at casino tables than many of you have, but I have never seen anything like this remotely happen. So how often does this really occur? It must be extremely rare for somebody to pull this refusing to pay move. If there are no legal consequences in most places , won't most rooms ban you at least? Also it would seem you might risk getting followed to the parking garage by the wrong type of guy.

For those people that are saying we should get rid of the one-chip call, how many chips would you need to put out before a call was binding?

Are you saying if a villain threw out one chip (or more?) and the bettor turned over his hand in response, that would constitute an out of turn action and then the villain could either fold, call, or raise, now based on knowing the bettors hand? This seems like a much greater opportunity to angle-shoot than the existing rule.

There are many things that rooms should require, but don't. But that doesn't mean you stop the game if you don't agree with their local rules. This room apparently has and enforces a one-chip call rule; if you don't like that rule, then don't play in the room. However, if you've sat down, that means that you agree to abide by all house rules, including the one-chip call rule. Accordingly, once the dealer has confirmed that the villain has called the bet, then hero should continue and not make an ass of himself by holding up the game and insisting that villain cut out and push forward the exact amount of calling chips before hero turns over his cards.

So concerned about a potential angle that everyone (dealer included) had to yell at you and this is the reason why you don't enjoy poker anymore? Is this a level? You took it too far and became "that guy" at the table. Own it and move on.

Why should you assume this room enforces a one-chip call, just because one player throws one chip in? Doesn't prove it is common there, and certainly doesn't show that it will be enforced if he tries to renege.

That shouldn't really be an issue. The caller would attempt to put in the same amount bet. The bettor and dealer would visually verify that it appeared correct.

If the amount was way off, and neither player nor the dealer noticed in time, and the caller objected to making the amount correct, a floor would be called to determine if there had been a "gross misunderstanding" of the bet amount. If the amount was just a little short, most likely the caller would fix it with no fuss. If not, and he decided to leave without paying, at least the bettor would only be screwed for a little bit, not the whole bet like happens under the one-chip policy.