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Single chip a minimum bet? Single chip a minimum bet?

05-29-2015 , 12:01 PM
Let me start by saying that I don't play many tournaments and until last month it had probably been several years since I had played one at a casino. I played in a small stakes NLHE tournament of some Card Player series at an Oklahoma casino and run into a tournament rule that I had never heard before.

Blinds were 50/100 and after a couple limps I checked on the big blind. After the flop I put a 500 chip out as my bet and I was told that it was a minimum bet which would be the amount of the big blind because I didn't declare the amount of the bet. I know of the rule that says that a single chip after a bet or raise is just a call but I have never heard that a single chip as the initial bet is a minimum bet. Is that a standard rule? Would that be he same at a WSOP tournament?

I did call the floor and the tournament director confirmed the ruling as correct. Makes no sense to me but anyway I wonder if that is a rule of Card Player tournaments, Oklahoma casinos or what.
Single chip a minimum bet? Quote
05-29-2015 , 12:06 PM
I was a dealer in the UK until recently, so not sure how our rules will differ with US rules. The standard rule in every UK casino that I've played in though, is that unless unspecified, your bet should stand as the value of the chip (assuming you aren't facing previous action). So in your example your bet would be 500. If you threw in a 5,000 chip, it would be 5,000 etc. If you were facing a bet, and threw in a single oversized chip of any value (and regardless of the values of the remaining chips in your stack), it would be a call.

For example, facing a bet of 500 you throw in a 5,000 chip. You couldn't then argue that, because you have '500' value chips in your stack, the 5,000 is logically an intended raise, you would have to say 'Raise' or '5000' before throwing the chip in.

By the sounds of things you're well aware of this already. To be specific to your question, I think this was a bad ruling. The only way to be sure is to ask for a copy of the casino's rules. I invariably ask for a full copy of the house rules whenever I go to a new casino. If this is in their rules, it is a bad one. Even worse if it was an incorrect ruling, I only hope it didn't cost you to much!
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05-29-2015 , 12:07 PM
You are correct, that is not a standard ruling. Can you tell us if the SB was also in the hand ? (Were you facing a min-bet from the SB?)
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05-29-2015 , 12:09 PM
Very non-standard.
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05-29-2015 , 12:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by albedoa
You are correct, that is not a standard ruling. Can you tell us if the SB was also in the hand ? (Were you facing a min-bet from the SB?)
There was no bet in front of me. I was first to act after the flop.
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05-29-2015 , 12:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by StrathGoose
I was a dealer in the UK until recently, so not sure how our rules will differ with US rules. The standard rule in every UK casino that I've played in though, is that unless unspecified, your bet should stand as the value of the chip (assuming you aren't facing previous action). So in your example your bet would be 500. If you threw in a 5,000 chip, it would be 5,000 etc. If you were facing a bet, and threw in a single oversized chip of any value (and regardless of the values of the remaining chips in your stack), it would be a call.

For example, facing a bet of 500 you throw in a 5,000 chip. You couldn't then argue that, because you have '500' value chips in your stack, the 5,000 is logically an intended raise, you would have to say 'Raise' or '5000' before throwing the chip in.

By the sounds of things you're well aware of this already. To be specific to your question, I think this was a bad ruling. The only way to be sure is to ask for a copy of the casino's rules. I invariably ask for a full copy of the house rules whenever I go to a new casino. If this is in their rules, it is a bad one. Even worse if it was an incorrect ruling, I only hope it didn't cost you to much!
I agree with everything you say. In the end it was early in the tournament so it didn't cost me much so no big deal but I had to be careful from then on because I am just not used to that.
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05-29-2015 , 12:34 PM
A single chip that opens a street's action is consider to be 'in full value' when it hits the felt.

Only when there has been previous action does a single chip constitute the minimum action (call) without any otherwise verbal/physical indication from the player before it hits the felt. GL
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05-29-2015 , 12:53 PM
TDA RULES:
Quote:
42: Oversized Chip Betting
Anytime when facing a bet or blind, placing a single oversized chip in the pot is a call if a raise isn’t first verbally declared. To raise with an oversized chip, raise must be declared before the chip hits the table surface. If raise is declared (but no amount), the raise is the maximum allowable for that chip. When not facing a bet, placing an oversized chip in the pot without declaration is a bet of the maximum for the chip.
(of course this rule has a built in problem ... because when not facing a bet a chip can't be described as oversized. However its pretty clear that this means that this rule means a single chip when not facing a bet is equal to the amount of the chip -- subject to the minimum and maximum bet size rules)

RROP 11(NO LIMIT POT LIMIT section):
Quote:

10. A bet of a single chip or bill without comment is considered to be the full amount of the chip or bill allowed. However, a player acting on a previous bet with a larger denomination chip or bill is calling the previous bet unless this player makes a verbal declaration to raise the pot. (This includes acting on the forced bet of the big blind.)

WSOP rules (even more poorly written then TDA rule):
Quote:
94. Oversized Chip Betting:
Putting a single oversized chip or multiple same-denomination chips into the pot will be considered a call if the participant doesn’t announce a raise. For example, pre-flop, blinds are 200-400: A raises to 1,200 total (an 800 raise), B puts out two 1,000 chips without declaring raise. This is just a call because removing one 1,000 chip leaves less than the amount needed to call the 1,200 bet. To make a raise with a single oversized chip, a verbal declaration must be made before the chip hits the table surface. If a participant says "Raise" as an oversized chip is placed into the pot (with the word Raise being announced prior to the chip landing on the table surface), but doesn’t state the amount, the raise will be the maximum allowable up to the denomination of that chip. After the flop, an initial bet of a single oversized chip without comment will signify a bet equal to the size of the chip.

Last edited by psandman; 05-29-2015 at 01:00 PM.
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05-30-2015 , 04:12 PM
RROP 11 is worded perfectly, I assume the TDA wording is an attempt to word itself around weird limit corner cases where you have betting options, like a pair on 4th street in stud, etc. while simultaneously covering all the no limit options. They should really just use the wording from the middle example.
Single chip a minimum bet? Quote
06-02-2015 , 02:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by abydos
Let me start by saying that I don't play many tournaments and until last month it had probably been several years since I had played one at a casino. I played in a small stakes NLHE tournament of some Card Player series at an Oklahoma casino and run into a tournament rule that I had never heard before.

Blinds were 50/100 and after a couple limps I checked on the big blind. After the flop I put a 500 chip out as my bet and I was told that it was a minimum bet which would be the amount of the big blind because I didn't declare the amount of the bet. I know of the rule that says that a single chip after a bet or raise is just a call but I have never heard that a single chip as the initial bet is a minimum bet. Is that a standard rule? Would that be he same at a WSOP tournament?

I did call the floor and the tournament director confirmed the ruling as correct. Makes no sense to me but anyway I wonder if that is a rule of Card Player tournaments, Oklahoma casinos or what.
This isn't just a "non-standard ruling;" this is an incorrect ruling based on the floor/TD's misunderstanding or misinterpretation of the correct rule. Bet should have stood as 500.

I have seen floors make this mistake before, and the damage is that players think it's the actual rule the next time they play. I had this exact circumstance happen within the last week at my casino:
Blinds 200-400.
Player A, first to act on the flop throws out a single 1000 chip.
Villain says "That's 400!"
"Floor"
"That's 1000"
"I had this happen last week and the floor ruled it 400"
"I'm sorry but whether that happened or not, it does not change what the correct ruling is; the bet is 400"
Villain grumbles and tries to convince other players why it should be 400.

Floorpeople have an obligation to their players to understand their own rules, so it's moderately aggravating when incorrect floor calls that someone else makes affect your own credibility.
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06-03-2015 , 05:34 AM
Non standard detected in high degree.

others have made the case already so I am just agreeing.
played in 7 or 8 countries in europe + 1 state in us.
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