1/2 NL

V1 raises to $8 in utg+2
Hero calls with 99 in the CO
V2 reraises to $25 from the button
V1 folds
V2 apparently didn't realize I was in the hand and he tables AKo.

Hero?

1. Tell him you haven't acted yet
2. Turn your 99 over
3. Ask him "Do I take my $8 back or do I shove all in?"

This happens all the time live. You just tell him you didn't act and then decide on what you want to do. You definitely do not table your hand. In this case I would call his raise and take a flop. No ace or king comes I jam and take the free money.

Not showing my hand in a million years and never folding. The only question is; is it more profitable to call or shove all in and calling is way better.

What if you had aces. Would you fold aces just because he made a mistake?

Just shove preflop. It gives him a chance to retire gracefully, but you have the edge if he calls.

If the guy is friendly and/or the table has been friendly and chatty I probably offer to check it down with him. Rules nits are going to complain about colluding with V2 in agreeing to check it down but keeping a fun/friendly vibe going is more important imo.

If they guy has been a jerk or he's a hoodie/sunglasses/headphone/ipad watching guy then I'm calling and shoving a non-A/K flop.

I would be a nice guy and just call. I'm not turning my hand over either. Bet safe flops.

I don't release or table my hand until the pot is pushed to me. He learned this the hard way.

Calling and then shoving flop is far worse morally and worse financially than shoving preflop.

It's tough to get paid off when Villain knows you know his hand, and it'll be clear that you've protracted the hand for your own gain.

"I haven't acted yet."

Shove.

"Now I have. "

Depending on how deep you are, flipping your hand over isn't outrageous. You're giving him a chance to flip for stacks or to swallow a $25 mistake.

the problem with shoving pre is he very well might call it off.

I know this isn't a strategy forum but people should know stack sizes before saying they will jam the flop.

In a vacuum (i.e. say I'm in a room I never play in and I don't know the V) I call and play my hand. His fault, you've done nothing wrong so I don't think calling is jerky.

If I know the V I may proceed differently. If he's a friend or a fish, and you're comfortable flipping for stacks, I like the idea of shoving and showing your 99 and letting him decide what to do. If V is a good player and or I dislike him, I'll flat.

Also, if I had a hand that I was clearly going to fold to the 3-bet anyway (say I flatted with ATs or something), I'd just fold. This is a different scenario because 99 might have been a call if he hadn't shown his hand, so why does he get to win the pot due to his mistake.

Is there a stacksize that would make playing 99 vs AK undesireable? I can't think of a situation where this is -EV

I call flop and then play accordingly. If its a dry board I ship it and take it down. You've done nothing wrong so why should you get punished?

I call. Wait to see a flop. Go from there. You are not cheating or being a DB. He exposed his hand. He must pay the price if there is one to pay. I am never exposing my hand in return.

it's not like we have AA vs AK. It's pretty much a coin flip. Are you willing to flip a coin with 400BB+? That's up to you.

I don't care about the moral part but calling preflop is by far better financially. You get to realize your equity while being able to play perfectly on boards you are beat. You just called the first raise preflop so unlikely to have KK+, by shoving you are going to get called nearly always so you are basically taking a flip with little EV. By calling and betting safe flops you essentially have the same flip but you get to deny his equity on turn/river when you get a safe flop.

Well dang, it looks like I was a chump. Lesson learned. Ty all for your thoughts. Were were both ~200bb and I didn't want to flip for stacks so if I could redo this I like the idea of calling and playing it out. Might consider offering to check it down depending on the villain.

I have always wondered why people call a 55% edge a coin toss. If I am playing adequately rolled, then yeah, I get my money in with a 5% advantage.

What did you do then? Generally speaking, this is legit mistake by villain and poker is all about exploiting your opps mistakes so I do not really see any reason to softplay here. Then again it's about small money and if you're friendly with V offering to check it down seems ok

Many 1/2NL V's are probably incapable of that thought process. Also interesting that no one has considered other bet sizes

10% advantage - 55 vs 45. It's a coin flip in that it's way closer than the 80-20 you can get with pair over pair.

Assume:
100 BB stacks effective
if we shove pre villain always calls
if we shove a safe flop villain is never calling

EV of pre-flop shove
216 * 55% - 192 * 45% = $32

EV of safe flop shove
41 * 71% - 17 * 29% = $24

So yeah the pre-flop shove has higher EV but far higher variance. Our EV if villain always folds to a pre-flop shove is even higher.

^ I haven't run the numbers myself, but I think you're not counting the money we might make when the flop has a 9 and an Ace or King. Not sure of the best way to play that flop, but we should be able to make some money. Or if we assume we can't make any money there, then we should get to see a free turn and river to hit a set sometimes.

I never said shove flop. There's all sorts of different things you can do to make his life miserable. Betting 1/3th pot on T42 for example or bluff on certain runouts. Also depending on position you even get to see a turn/river when he has the best hand.

A shove here makes little sense. Why play for a narrow margin with a small advance. Call pre flop A or K hits you are done thus removing his advantage but if he has air then make a good value bet. Put 35-40 in the pot. If he folds you made 30 bucks with no risk and if the stacks wher as much as 300 then heros equity if pre shove is 30. So same reward without the risk. Then if he does call because let's face it people could get sticky here thinking you might be bluffing now your equity is even better. So shove if you hate money and don't like good equity, call if you like great equity or make a deal of call and checking it down to keep it friendly.

I folded and regretted it pretty instantly.

ALL THE TEA



An A or K is more likely to be dead from the other opponent than a 9. Solid shove, that is, if you're playing to WIN. Decent chance you pick-it-up right there.