So you're OK with high denominations not being on top or in front of someone's stack? A single high denomination hidden somewhere in someone's stack should be counted as clearly visible?

The rule states big chips must be on top of a stack

By the rule you mean a rule specific to your cardroom?

Big denom chips in front or on top is (or should be) the standard used.

So you would have an issue with a single stack of chips with 5 Black on the bottom, with 4 green above the black and 11 red chips on the top?

I've played in rooms where a black chip in the middle of a stack of red is definitely not clearly visible.

In the room where I work if a player pushes a dirty stack forward with an oversized chip somewhere in the mix, I'll pull the "dirty" chip out of the pile and set it aside so that there can be no doubt that the chip is in there.

This probably happens about once a month and I haven't had a complaint about this yet.

I would have no problem with a dealer who corrected this to put the blacks and greens on top or out front. But if they were also clearly visible in a well lit room with highly contrasting colors, then sure, leave it alone. On the other hand, if they want to correct it, no one should have any complaint. If you don't want the dealer to touch your bet stacks, then put them out with high denoms on top or in front.

Of course that example is also nothing like having a single high denom chip in the middle of a stack of a lower denom chip, or perhaps even several other stacks.

If we're going to play the game of trying to make each other look stupid with extreme examples, are you saying you're OK with a single high denom chip mixed into the middle of 5 other full stacks of chips where the chips are actually fairly close in color, because the chip is "visible" to at least one nearby player in the middle of that stack?

High denom chips go on top or in front. This should be true both in your stacks, and in your bets. It is not complicated, and a dealer should fix it when it's needed to protect the integrity of the game. This overrules any concern about whether doing so draws attention to the size of the bet (or your stack), or makes it appear like the chip may have been accidentally included in a bet. Opponents should treat a dealer correcting this like they'd treat any incident of "oops, I meant to bet $10, not $105!", caveat emptor.

I was wondering how this thread got so bit .. not anymore ...

When dealing with the player pool at 1/2 I think it's warranted that dealers go a little out of the way to make sure things go as smooth as possible. One casino I play at has very large tables and most of the dealers announce every bet. Not so sure it's a room policy as much as it's 'accepted' to keep the games (and tips) moving along.

I would ask (almost expect) my dealers to separate a dirty stack put out for a bet. Not necessarily announce the bet, but make sure the chips are in clear view.

Now we can try to define 'dirty' ... at the risk of the wrath of psandman

Dirty, IMO, is any chip(s) 'in the middle' of other chips of a different denomination. I have no issue with greens on top of blacks or blacks on top of greens .. or even a 3rd color in there. But don't start and stop (mix) up the colors within the stack. I would even stretch this to a single chip on the bottom of a stack even though it's technically not mixed per my own definition. (Say a black on the bottom of multiple greens or reds.)

I see no reason for a non-involved player to step into this if the dealer 'fails' to do so until there may be an error happening. (Per Kelvis, I think)

To continue my typical line of thinking that dealers need to (can) do 'less' at the higher stakes I find it very typical for a player to cut out a call and then put some chips on top for a raise when pushing it out. Players at higher stakes typically would more accurately access the spot.

Long story long ... $4 on $70 is not a big deal ... chips that change the bet by much larger amounts should be made 'extra' clear if not presented as such in the initial bet motion.

Let's go crazy here and talk about Dealers who neatly stack chips when they are bet in the 'falling tower of Pisa' fashion. GL

for a dealer, yes but from seat 3 to seat 8 it's not very clear.

I'd say this is the case in most rooms, but especially rooms like Aria where redbirds are more of a dark maroon.

psandman, if you are using "visible" to mean "able to be seen by those of high awareness and scrupulousness", then that is obviously against the spirit of the discussion. There's exactly one reason why you'd place a black within a stack of reds.

RROP states that "high denomination chips must be easily visible". Not simply visible, but easily visible. The easily shows that the intent is not simply visible versus hidden, but rather easily identifiable versus visible but not obvious. A black chip in the middle or say bottom quarter of stack of red, with that stack in a row of other stacks, is not easily visible across the table. And if you have to rely on noticing the difference in edge markings, then it definitely isn't easily visible.

And RROP doesn't state that they must be easily visible before you bet them, but it's OK to make them less visible when you bet them. Just because a player has the right to ask for a count doesn't mean the easily visible standard goes away.

Yeah, how many times a day do you hear players at the ends of the table say they can't see the cards on the board?

1. I am not saying a chip which is in a dirty stack is ALWAYS visible. I certainly agree that I could stack them so that it was not, or that it is possible that some casino has colors/edge marks that make them not clearly visisble. My point is that a chip is not inherently not visisble just because it is not on top. If you go back to my first response you see I in fact discussed that issue.

The standard on which we judge whether a chip is visible can;t be the player who can;t see anything ..... because they can't tell the color of the chip even if it is on top.

I have players ask me all the time how much a bet is when its obvious and clearly visible.... that's ok. If the reason they are asking is because they can;t see ... well then they are dealing with their handicap the appropriate way . But if they don't ask me the bet size and make a mistake .... that's not because the chips weren't visible....

Let's be specific here. I'm a player at a 2/5 NL table and you're the dealer. I push out a stack of chips. 20 chips total. There's 11 reds on the bottom. Then 1 black chip. Then 8 more reds. For all I know (as the bettor) I've just made a $100 bet. I haven't done anything obvious to make it appear that I'm trying to be deceptive about the black chip in the middle of my stack.

As the dealer, you have no inclination to point out to me and to the rest of the players in the hand that I've made a bet with a dirty stack?

To me, this isn't a matter of OPTAH. This is nothing more than a dealer running a clean game.

Thanks for the responses. The discussion has been interesting.

At the risk of derailing my own thread, let's assume that the use of a dirty stack was inadvertent and unintentional. Under those circumstances, what would happen if Player B asks for a count, and then Player A realizes that he mistakenly used a dirty stack?

Can Player A correct his bet if he so chooses since Player B has not made a decision yet and has asked to clarify the amount of the bet that he is facing?

If so, can Player A also correct his bet if the dealer voluntarily announces the amount of the bet without being asked by Player B and before Player B has acted?

I assume that if Player B calls without asking for a count, then Player A is bound by his bet, even if the amount is not what he intended.

no, he can not change his bet. Whatever he put out stands, so the bet would be 71 dollars to call.

FWIW that is when I would point out the white chip, if the dealer still didn't notice it by then.

Thanks. Is it the same answer if the buried chip in the dirty stack is a black $100 chip?

I am going to look at it and excercise my judgment about whether that black chip is clearly visisble. If it is then I do nothing until the opponent asks for a count.

If it isn't then i make it visible.


And obviously in certian situations just calling the game will make it apparent, such if you did that while facing a $100 bet ... I would announce "raise" which would make it apparent that the stack was not $100.

Any player who silently pushes out chips for a bet is bound by that bet .. higher or lower than they intended .. unless the bet doesn't meet the minimum bet.

With the risk of the bettor giving off some sort of physical tell due to not realizing their true bet size, I'm immediately separating the chips as described since they are 'mixed'. (reds above AND below or 'single' higher denomination chip on bottom).

I am sliding into Psandman's camp that if the chips aren't mixed (truly dirty), but perhaps just red on bottom and black on top or the bettor was so obvious with how he stacked them (ala call on bottom, raise on top) then I'm less inclined to offer my sorting services.

Psandman is getting less involved in order to not 'automatically' expose a possible mistake by the bettor putting out an unknown dirty stack. I might be more inclined to lean that way if the room wasn't 80% regs. GL

If I have stacks of reds and less than 10 single whites for the small blind, I usually put them on top of one of the red stacks. I've never been asked to not do that even though the "big" chips are clearly not on top of that stack?

Only true for rooms that don't specify which chips play in a game. For example, lots of rooms don't have chips higher than $100 play in 1/2 and 2/5 games.

A poker room manager of a local room (that doesn't routinely announce bet sizes) said that this is what should happen in his room.


If a player sits down or tops up with chips that don't play at the game they should immediately be told by the dealer. If it's say a 2/5 with 1000 cap where nothing over 100 plays and someone tops up with a $500 chip and the dealer doesn't immediately notice/address it then the dealer should point out that the chip doesn't play as soon as he does notice it (hopefully before the player even tries to bet with it).

Most often the chips I see that don't play are the pink $2.50 chips from a blackjack player

We don't allow chips bigger than $100 at our 2/5 table. We also require that bets be in increments of $5. If a player makes a bet that includes, say, 7 white chips, I'll count out the whites, and in this example I'll "refund" 2 of the whites back to the bettor.

If a player makes a bet with a $500 chip I'll call the floor and let them make the ruling. (Normally, I'd see the oversized chip ahead of time in the player's stack and would inform him that it shouldn't be on the table).