Hi LCPers,

casino noob here with two related questions:

How common is it that dealers rake to much systematically in a casino environment?

What is the smart way to address this issue as a player?

Background: Not 100% sure but I think I saw this happen. The least I can say is that the dealer raked in a very quick and intransparent way. All chips went into the slot more or less at once so it's hard to hear if there where two or three chips falling down. Best way to be sure is probably to memorize all bets and count the pot after winning a hand?

Is this a legal poker room? The rake procedure should be transparent. Voice your concerns to a floor.

If it isn't a legit room there's an above average chance that the 'procedure' is to over-rake where possible.

What country are you playing in OP?

What Guito said definitely should apply to all of the U.S. and probably all other countries with well established and regulated casinos and gambling markets. But there are countries with less well regulated gambling markets where over taking is done intentionally even in legal/major casinos.

I live in europe in a country with a well working legal system but not a well regulated gambling market.

Two separate dealers told me that they would sometimes intentionally rake too much when guests didnt tip them or were unfriendly to them. They both claimed they werent asked to do this by management and they didnt tell management, so they didnt gain an advantage.

No idea if i should believe them, but i guess its sometimes hard for a dealer to just sit there and take abuse without being able to respond (often they arent protected enough by floor-people from "good" customers who do this).

Can't say that over raking would give me any satisfaction.

German casino. Casinos operate with a license by the respective federal state. The job of the supervising finance authority is to get enough money from the owner, not to protect players. Of course there are regulations and you can for example self ban yourself from all German casinos. In general casino poker is not doing well where I live and casino turnover including all games and slot machines is declining all over Germany.

Players were friendly and everyone was tipping at least € 1.00 if a flop was dealt. Staff wages are payed entirely through tips, the casino owner has to pay for staff only if tip is not sufficient.

I know I can talk to the floor. I talked to him a week ago in order to know how rake is handled. Maybe I should ask him about a written statement? Rules for the game and rake must be codified somehow. Their website says nothing about rake though but that is pretty much standard in Germany with a few exceptions.

Best would be a subtle way to let the dealer know I am paying attention, right? In general I want to play there and am not interested in attracting attention by staff and other players.

In the casinos where I play in the US there's a plaque on the table that indicates the game type, stakes, buy-in min and max, and rake and jackpot structure. That's helpful on so many levels.

I don't know that I've ever seen a dealer over rake but I have seen a dealer intentionally under rake - on a split pot where the players would have lost money if the rake was done correctly.

Procedure at every raked casino I've played in is to set the rake aside on top of the chute during the hand, and only drop it at the end of the hand. This makes it very transparent to the players that the correct amount is being taken out. In my observation, about 100 hands are under-raked for every 1 that is over-raked -- dealers just trying to save time and don't want to change the extra dollar.

Couldn't hurt to mention your concern to a supervisor. If this is condoned by management then there's nothing you can do anyway, if complaining to regulators is fruitless.

That's a lesson poker players have trouble with... site/room operators have you bent over, you can either deal with it because the games are still profitable or you can take your ball and go home.

In all fairness as stated in the OP the only legitimate gripe he has is that on one particular hand he feels the taking of the rake wasn't transparent.

I see it happen almost everytime I play. Just point it out and the floor should find a way to refund the winner. Most places the rake is very trasparent. If you think they are not transparent, ask the floor if they might look into changing their procedures so players don't feel like they're being cheated.

DK Barrel, that is not the way it is handled here - rake is taken out at once at the end of the hand.

psandman, I did not talk about a particular hand. But it's fair enough too point out I am not sure.

Thanks to all commenters.

Why do they do it that way?

Typically in a casino the dealers will all use the same 'system' and it should be obvious to the table before it gets 'put away'.

I think the biggest opportunity for 'variance' is in rooms that use the tray for the rake.

We had a room where the dealers got bonuses for producing 'the most' rake. This definitely opened up the door to double raking the larger pots. Some dealers got caught, some didn't. At the time poker was booming so good that most players didn't really care or speak up too much .. on to the next hand. But other players knew to watch certain dealers .. and of course, those dealers knew when those players were at the table. GL

I've seen dealers over rake many times, but it is almost always when the table is on reduced rake and the dealer forgets.

I think that's the issue here. German casinos are highly regulated, I doubt anyone wants to lose his license over small money. What do you think the rake in this casino is? Some German casinos have rather complex rake structures, you might have just understood it incorrectly

He speaks pretty authoritatively about it in post #11. A casino noob who knows exactly how it's done and what he saw.

Noobhood and ignorance have overlap and correlation, but a noob can be informed prior to experience. Like a green recruit who gets all of the training, but enters his first day in the field.

OP, keep watching the dealer. It's highly possible you were mistaken, or it's possible that the dealer might have made an error.

As you said, it's not worth losing your licence over a few extra marks or euros. It's very likely just a mistake on someone's part.

Of course I cannot speak for all dealers, but...

When I under-rake a pot, it's not "just trying to save time", as it takes no time at all--it's because I got distracted by something (it doesn't take much), and switching your brain between auto-pilot and conscious thought isn't as easy as it sounds. Turn off my auto-pilot, which has been taking the rake, and all bets are off.

BTW, I've never done it, but I have felt the temptation to over-rake a pot going to a stiff. Same as I've never punched an obnoxious person, despite occasional temptation. Part of your brain wants to lash out and hurt people who annoy you, but then you remember that you are a grown-up. Sadly, I've worked with plenty of dealers who are decidedly NOT grown-ups.

To me over raking a pot even to the worst people would provide no satisfaction because they would not even know about it.

When I finally strike out at someone.... I want them to know they have been struck.

IMO, the players who don't tip and are jerks are the ones who WILL watch the dealer to make sure there isn't any over-raking going on. And if he notices it more than once to his detriment, he will go to the floor. They will be able to check tapes and if they see a pattern, that dealer will soon find himself out of a job and won't find another one in the industry.

So as you say, no satisfaction if the player doesn't know, and a lost job if he does. Not a tough choice.

Hardball, love the part with "marks or euros" :-) It's fun because a lot of Germans think we would be better of if we would return to the Deutsche Mark / DM.

Meanwhile I've read the law that regulates casinos in the federal state I play in. Playing rules of the casino need approval by the home office and should be displayed "at the entrance of the gambling room". Pretty sure rake structure is described there. So I'll have a look before I play next time.

For now I only know what the floor told me. It's not complex here but the cap is pretty high.