Was playing in a semi-serious local 'pub' league game, which attracts upto 30 runners. A lot of the players are regular casino players (me included) but this is very much a social game, albeit well run.

About mid way on in tournament, I have Aces in BB, a ton of limpers, everyone looks at me and someone says 'family pot?' - I say 'sorry Aces, gotta raise it up I'm afraid'. Now this is all very lighthearted.. and obv I'm joking as I say it, but also a bit of psyching going on, as we all like to do from time to time. I raise it up 5xBB.

One player calls...

I lead out on every street... he calls with a paired K from a K high flop... I show aces.. and state.. 'I told you I had aces' - everyone has good giggle. But.. one person, not in the hand, a casino reg.. causes a fuss (semi-serious), says that coz I called my hand pre, my hand is forfeit?! I was like 'are you serious' and we get the organiser over who confirms this.

According to their rules/information. Because I stated I had aces and actually HAD aces this is against casino rules. If I hadn't had aces it would have been fine. They reckon that this is standard... but I've played a bunch in casinos and have heard similar things being called out before, with no comment made...

I quoted Jamie Gold going through the WSOP pretty much declaring his hands the whole way through.. getting paid off coz nobody believed him ofc. They stated that may be the case in US but in UK it's a no go.

I didn't state it to anyone in particular to try and let them have a 'heads up' on my hand, it was just part of general playing.. and a 'lighthearted' response I might have made with any hand faced with a plea to not raise it up... just to mess with 'em.

The player I beat, didnt want the pot.. saw the funny side.. but I'm curious.. is this a well known/enforced rule? Anywhere?


Piano

This exact situation happened at an MTT at Malmö Casino three weeks ago. Guy says (in Swedish) call it I've got Kings... villain does, and then there's a bust-up quoting Jamie Gold. THe room manager (Who is a highly professional career casino worker) adjuducates:

You called. You lose

Villain: "But in Vegas the hand would be dead."

"We're not in Vegas, and the betting action takes precedence."

So I guess the lesson here is: it's your game, your rules. Just decide either way and live with it. Personally in this case I'd say so what, you said it, no worse than any other trash talk, other player has to work out if your bluffing or not......

Doesn't really help, but I kind of get why this could be worth a ruling.....

Well, IMO, Jamie Gold got away with A LOT more than he ever should've been allowed to. I would never base any rules on something you see on the WSOP, as, for the most part, they're some of the most inconsistent or just plain incompetent rule enforcers I've ever seen.

As for what you said, meh... It would be a warning in my room; definitely not a forfeiture of a pot.

Neither disclosing your hand, nor even exposing it for all to see, should ever, ever, ever cause your hand to be killed.

Either disclosing your hand or exposing it does give the floor the opportunity to sanction you for it (missed hands/orbits, or even getting 86'ed from the casino for a time or permanently if you are a repeat offender), AFTER the hand.

Your hand should not be dead for this..... But it is against the rules to talk about your hand like that. Of course this one instance wasn't a big deal and what should have happened was a simple warning at the time you said.

By the way ... the idea that you can talk about it if you lie but not if you tell the truth is idiotic.

and your citation of Jamie Gold's behavior is off base because the WSOP acknowledged that he should have been penalized.

http://www.wsop.com/news/varchive.asp?aid=172

FWIW, in Casino games, I'm a very 'quiet' player... I just sit and play, and watch, very rarely chat, and if I do, it's about some other shiz than poker... I'm there to play and win, and that's a totally different mindset... But.. I do see others doing similar things without any repercussion.

The significant thing about this hand, was that they were adamant the issue wasn't with my stating a hand, it was about the fact it 'actually was' my hand. I queried this at the time, if for instance I had said i had Kings... but actually had Aces.. that would have been fine!!

Seems screwy to me... if there is a rule it should be no talking about hands or hand content at all... and that would mean obviously speculating about hands at any point which would be ridiculous. EG. somebody puts you all in on the river... there's a flush out there but you have a straight... I've lost count of how many times somebody thinks out loud... I've got a straight but if you got the flush I'm screwed... it's all part of the game IMO... this is just as much fishing for information as declaring your hand.. but AFAIK there is no rule about thinking out loud..

Or... favourite... the statement 'Well I'm definitely folding, I'm just deciding whether to Call or Raise' - if that isn't the verbal equivalent of a string bet I don't know what is... and that's far more devious and 'info-gathering' than stating a hand at the start which nobody should put any weight on at all..

Guess that's why I play the games rather than run them...

Piano

That's good to know... I'm not a big fan of his, but it was the first thing that sprung to mind... more like a 'just wait a second... what about' thing... not a 'well if he can do it, why can't I?' thing...

I would like to aspire to greater things than that.

Thanks for all the responses...

And thanks for not just saying 'you twot'... like I said it was a funny social question that raised a more serious rule/etiquette question.

Piano

Your hand should never be penalised for this. Even at the wsop you would receive a 1 lap penalty rather than losing the hand.

Most London venues such as the Vic allow you to say anything you want.

You should never be disclosing the contents of your hand when there are more than two players in the hand.

From RRoP:

I'd love to get a game in down that there London... I used to be down there all the time... but now I got little sprogs, I'm tied to my local area mostly... I hear the Vic is a fantastic crack.



I checked out the Jamie Gold issues.. it seems that he broke the rules on two occassions namely saying 'top top' and exposing one of his cards to get a reaction.

But... the regulators didnt mention the loads of times, he would say specific strength of hands... eg... you got me bluffing.. etc.. or famously the last hand where he has a Queen paired on the flop against Wasicka's 10 10 - when he shoves and Wasicka is thinking about it.. he knows he can't be beating a pair of queens and literally tells him this... he says 'if you haven't got a queen I've got you' - and yet this isn't an infringement?

He famously stated after the event that all the way through he told the truth about his hands... when he had it he said so.. and if he was bluffing he said so... and yet the regulators only picked up on two minor points. Confused.


Gonna go check out the Vic's schedule and see if I can get a day away

to DCJ001 and Bulls_Horn... at no point did I actually show any cards... merely said preflop from the button "sorry, Aces, gotta raise it up" - That shouldn't really mean I've got aces... and isn't really disclosing my hand surely?

It was only significant because I actually had aces... and the chap who called me didn't beleive I had 'em anyway... and I doubt he would have suspected whether I had said so or not. There's gotta be a difference between actually disclosing what you've got and merely saying.. or grandstanding.

If I had said... to anyone in particular... I got em' with a wink of the eye to really let them off the hook.. that would be collusion.. and I get it... totally out of order. That can't apply here, and again it's the issue that it was actually what I was holding.. if I had won with KK but said I had Aces that apparently is fine o_O

Under TDA rules you should receive a penalty same as showing your cards. If you said you have KK and have AA no penalty but saying AA with AA draws a penalty.

ah Bulls_Horn.. just read the last line.. my bad..

Strictly speaking then yep.. I'm busted... not sure in the context of how it happened I would have been done for anything there... but that makes sense if you are letting people know very specifically and verbally... not just goofballing around.

Worth knowing though...

Thx

Piano

And the penalty could be what? Unspecified I guess it could be anything from forfeiture of the hand down to time or hand penalty...?

I think they were trying to appease some people by "enforcing" the rule ... but did not want to admit that they had botched the whole thing ... keep in mind this was also the year of the color up problem.

thats ******** and certainly not in the TDA rules.

As mentioned (repeatedly) above, the penalty should not include forfeiture of the hand. In a tourney, it could generally be a penalty of hands/orbits. If you are a repeat offender, you may eventually be barred from the room.

TDA rule # 40. Penalties and Disqualification

A penalty MAY be invoked if a player exposes any card with action pending, throws a card off the table, violates the one-player-to-a-hand rule, or similar incidents take place. Penalties WILL be invoked in cases of soft play, abuse, or disruptive behavior. Penalties available to the TD include verbal warnings and “missed hand” penalties. Except for a one-hand penalty, missed hand penalties will be assessed as follows: The offender will miss one hand for every player, including the offender, who is at the table when the penalty is given multiplied by the number of rounds specified in the penalty. For the period of the penalty, the offender shall remain away from the table but will continue to be dealt in.

Even beyond this, they tightened the rules the year after and in the first episode of the following year's ME broadcast, Gold explains that the officials talked to him ahead of time and made it clear he'd be penalized early and often if did what he did the year before.

From a nitty perspective, op didn't technically say he had aces. Perhaps he was calling the other players "aces".

Continuing with the rules according to what I saw on the boob tube theme, I recall seeing a WSOP or WPT hand in a similar vein, where T.J. Cloutier got pretty riled up about another player verbally declaring his hand. He said something to the effect of "you better not have [such and such hand], they'll slap a penalty on you quick."

I keep reading that espcially the bold parts and don't see any distinction between saying what you have truthfully and not truthfully. Violating OPTAH is not okay just because you give bad advice.,

I'm not a tournament player and don't intend to be one but I find these things interesting; does this mean that in a tournament, if you are heads up, you can't declare your hand if you are telling the truth?

It means you can't declare your hand at all, at any point where there is still action, even heads up, and regardless of your truthfulness. doing so does not kill your hand, but opens you up for penalties.

If by heads up you mean the hand is heads up ... you should not be talking about the hand. The entire hand affects other players as well.

If you mean the tournament itself is down to being heads up there should be no problem.