Forgive if this is OT or already mentioned, I searched and couldn't find anything.

I was playing some NL at the Wynn, and some old douchebag tries to IWTSTH on this young kid he had been beating out of a ton of pots. The dealer says no and tells him that the kid didn't want to show.

A couple of nits say, can't you say IWTSTH? Dealer replies that the rule was originally intended to prevent collusion, and that the Wynn doesn't allow IWTSTH anymore. Is this a trend? Wynn specific?

Wynn had that in place at least since last summer, so if it's a trend, it's a very slow moving one.

sorry but what is IWTSTH?

I wish to see that hand.

o ok, figured it was something like that but couldnt piece the words together.

This is misleading...

The Wynn most definitely has and allows the IWTSTH rule. The difference is that they do not allow it for "information". If you want to invoke the rule you are more than welcome to, the floor will be called and you will have to explain why you think players are cheating in the game. If your explanation of why you want to see that hand(s) is real, the hand(s) will be shown and further investigation will take place.

But if a player just wants to gain information, you are SOL if you want to abuse the IWTSTH rule.

Just an aside this is in fact the traditional rule in games with a $1k or higher buy-in.

This is the way it should be in my opinion.

Boy that sounds reasonable. Just reasonable enough to have every other card room on the planet avoid doing the same thing.

On this topic I'm at a 1-2NL $100 max (Florida) game last week. A kid not in the hand asks to see the hand of the guy on my left, dealer shows. I make a face and the guy two to my left notices and asks why. I explain the intent of the rule and that it's not there just to give away information. The guy looks at me like I'm an idiot and says "but isn't that what poker's about, gaining information?" I wondered aloud if it's all about information then we should play with the hole cards face up. He wasn't up for it.

I wouldn't call that IWTSTH. It's more like ITTSOBIC (I Think That SOB Is Cheating), because merely "wanting" to see is not enough.

Just turn his next like 5 hands. That's what I do.

As an aside, I don't know if I have a lot of faith in people's ability to spot collusion. You have to be a very expert player to do that and a lot of novices misinterpret some actions as collusion when they're not.

I used to declare this to be "the way we are doing it as of right now" when someone was abusing the iwtsth (bullcrap) rule. Funny how super-nits get all indignant when they can't get free information, but squirm in their chairs when you press them to explain why they think a specific opponent is cheating. I just love doing this, making nits squirm and pissing them off :-) -al

To further comment on this "wynn" rule phenomenon ...

I would suspect that all the ultra-nitty regulars at the wynn probably pissed off enough people, dealers, floor, and players alike, that someone just had enough of the "iwtsth" rule one day. One of their staff with a brain probably realized the cure, and modern vegas poker history was made. Some rooms are (sort-of) following suit with rules that are somewhat similar. Bravo to anyone who does anything to get rid of the nits and morons who constantly invoke the "I want to get free information rule."

Unfortunately, the vast majority of people running las vegas poker have brains the size of a walnut. Thus, any trends towards the better will be extremely slow, and trends towards the worst will usually spread like wildfire (usually thanks to harrahs).

Al

this has also been the rule at bellagio for quite some time. great rule.

Yes, them not allowing a person who didn't raise, but simply called, to NOT be able to do 'I want to see the hand' it is a trend, and IMO, it is a good trend.

Anymore I think it's something ppl are using to try to get the other person on tilt, and it works. I know it ticked me off when up in Blackhawk some jerk used the rule on me, when I called him down, and found he got lucky on the river when his ace with a slightly better kicker hit. Up in Blackhawk, Colorado, they even take it one step further, and allow the IWTSTH rule to be enforced even if all you did, was call the hand down, and never raised.

I folded, and the hand was mucked, but it was mucked on top, when the jerk used the 'IWTSTH' to get the dealer to show my hand to the table.

I even got into an argument with the table telling them it's an outdated rule, to prevent colusion (which is why it was put in place in the first place), so it's tantamount to the jerk saying I was cheating, when he insisted on the IWTSTH thing.

They said that it isn't true, that wasn't the reason why.

I had the reverse happen to me where I first experienced the opposit, when I was first playing there, over at the Horseshoe in CB Iowa, where I tried to use the IWTSTH rule, and was told what you were told.

I tried to tell the players there that elsewhere this rule is enforced, where if anyone at the table that was in the hand wants to, and uses the IWTSTH rule, the hand must be shown ... and THEY told me (it was obvious they'd never played elsewhere in the country), I was full of it.

BTW, I was told by the floor at the Horseshoe, at CB Iowa, that this is now the standard (not allowing the IWTSTH rule to be abused for free information of a hand), at all Harrahs properties. I found it to be indeed the case when I played over at the Rio and at Harrahs in Vegas, just this past summer.

When I first started playing poker, one of the books I read warned me that it's important to check the house rules, because there are always variations around the country.

One example (of quirky rules) is in some parts of the midwest, if any part of your hole cards (one or both) hits the flop during showdown, your had can be declared dead, even if you were all in for all your money, and then other person is awarded the pot.

Thus, with many more rooms jumping on the bandwagon of not allowing the IWTSTH rule to be enforced (unless there is evidence of collusion), then the ONLY option left to the player, is even if you feel you've won the hand, you'll end up slow rolling the other player, if you want to see the hand.

IMO, I think the reason the rooms are going to this, is simply because it causes some VERY heated arguments and creates bad will at the poker table.

If there isn't evidence of cheating, I think most rooms would rather not have pissed off players who might not come back to play later on because of the rule being enforced when there was no evidence of cheating exibited.

I am making an effort at Foxwoods to make every IWTSTH request as painful as possible for all involved (except when soft play is involved). I always ask the player if he suspects collusion - and when he says no, I inform him of the intent of the rule. I will also call the Floor over every time so that the player will be personally barred from invoking the rule again for the rest of his session, which is now the FW standard. I do this so that the Floors will hate the rule even more than they already do.

I am also in the process of writing a concise essay as the basis for having the rule changed to be enforced as it is now apparently at the Wynn. As far as I know, all of the Floor personnel at FW hate the rule - and one suggested to me that I take up a petition to show how much support a rule change would have amongst the regulars.

The more I hear about the Wynn the more I like the place. I only played there once but I really enjoyed it. I've also heard tons of good things there.

I had IWTSTH called on me awhile back while playing 20/40 at CA in Phoenix. It was an asian lady who was steaming and said that she wanted to see my hand. I told the dealer that he better NOT touch my cards and to call the floor. When the floor arrived, I told the floor that the asian lady has accused me of cheating and I'd like to know why. The asian lady was shocked and said that she had done no such thing...I then proceeded to inform her the reason for the IWTSTH rule and she started stammering etc. The floor told me I'm correct, but then said that she has a right to see my cards...

I fired them into the muck as fast and as hard as possible as to make them unretrievable and asian lady glared at me, yet, never once my next two days asked to see my cards again...so maybe that helped?

If nothing else, made me feel much better.

Actually, the official rule on the books is that players may request to see a hand.

It's just that a good chunk of (the good) dealers think it's bs (because they understand the underlying aspect of why someone should be asking for the info - to catch cheating) and tell the asker they can't do it and crunch the hand into the muck to the roar of the nit.

afaik there's no "rulebook" at the bellagio at all. they have plenty of ******ed rules and inconsistent rulings there, but i've been at the table in, i dunno, the past 6 months or so, where at least three separate floors, when called to rule regarding IWTSTH, said the hand did NOT have to be shown, and told the dealer to pull the cards into the muck.

i'm positive this is their rule since, on one of the above occasions, i was the one who wanted to muck and called for the floor.

edit: it's possible that different rules apply for the upper section, and that IWTSTH actually can be invoked in the smaller games, which is an inconsistency i dislike. one set of rules for EVERYONE--none of this "no running it more than once, EXCEPT in bobby's room" crap--is that really so hard?

I kinda find it humorous to see those who get riled up when someone tries to invoke the rule.

b

I don't know what they are doing now, but going back to the Golden Nugget days if the buy-in was over $1k the floor had to be present for IWTSTH. I haven't seen a copy of the Bellagio rules since about 2000.

Yeah I'm starting to join this camp of thinking. The more I play, the more I realize I don't really care if people see my hands occassionally. If they see a ******ed bluff... thats cool. If they see a good hand that got sucked out on... thats cool. If they see a decent hand I overplayed... thats cool too.

Seriously, what are people going to do with this little piece of information. Just be aware of it and adjust accordingly.

Mirage started doing it about a year and a half ago as well.

turbomuck ftw