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Old 02-11-2012, 07:36 PM   #176
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Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

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Well, given that he pretended to muck before flipping over the quads, I'm pretty sure it was a slow roll.
Ha! Well, how often does he get quads? Let him enjoy his win. Did he also say, "I have two pair... sixes... and sixes!" ? Don't get me wrong, I think slowrolling is awful, and I try never to do it. But when someone else does it to me, I see that person as a clown, so I laugh.

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Incidentally, I think you're pretty much spot on about why so many people tilt so very, very hard.
Thanks. People comment that I take beats well. I tell 'em it's because I'm dead inside.
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Old 02-11-2012, 07:56 PM   #177
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Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

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You're calling too much.
LOL. No doubt.


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I can't even remember the last time I saw a slowroll. I've seen plenty of people get irritated at perceived slowrolls, but legitimate deliberate needling slowrolls are incredibly rare.
I was slow-rolled last-night. It was pretty funny.
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Old 02-11-2012, 07:59 PM   #178
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Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

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I guess I'm starting to understand you guys a little bit better now. If being slow-rolled actually bothers you, then I guess I could see taking steps to protect your ego or emotional state or whatever, especially if those steps are within the rules, as has been pointed out.

It just stuns me a little bit to think that it could actually bother you to be slowrolled, if you take poker seriously at all. I've been slowrolled so many times, and it ranges from neutral to absolutely hilarious every time. I have never been slowrolled by a player who was better than me, so its universally a good sign for the game.
It doesn't really bother me. I just like denying the jackasses their fun, I guess. They're trying to pull a fast one and I enjoy not letting them. It's just all part of the game to me.

When I call someone's bet I expect them to turn over their hand. I do when i'm called. It's that simple, really.

And to pfapfap....I really liked that bit on happiness....I'm going to try that at the tables tonight.
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Old 02-11-2012, 08:54 PM   #179
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Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

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Originally Posted by pfapfap View Post
Ha! Well, how often does he get quads? Let him enjoy his win. Did he also say, "I have two pair... sixes... and sixes!" ? Don't get me wrong, I think slowrolling is awful, and I try never to do it. But when someone else does it to me, I see that person as a clown, so I laugh.



Thanks. People comment that I take beats well. I tell 'em it's because I'm dead inside.
No, he just went to muck, then pulled his hand back, looked at it, and flipped it over with a giant **** eating grin. Clown seems like an apt description.

Slow rolling doesn't really offend me, as you say, I just find it pointless/childish and never do it myself.

If only we could all be so dead inside.
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Old 02-12-2012, 09:52 AM   #180
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There was a couple of dealers in the Fitz in Dublin who used to (jokingly) say "First to show wins the pot." at showdown, to egg players along.

Funny thing is, they were usually right.
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Old 02-12-2012, 12:59 PM   #181
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Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

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Ha! Well, how often does he get quads? Let him enjoy his win. Did he also say, "I have two pair... sixes... and sixes!" ? Don't get me wrong, I think slowrolling is awful, and I try never to do it. But when someone else does it to me, I see that person as a clown, so I laugh.



Thanks. People comment that I take beats well. I tell 'em it's because I'm dead inside.
LOL, I get this all the time, "No one takes a soulcrushing session like you do." I think I've managed to brainwash myself with the idea that the actual results of the hands dont matter (which is sort of true, but not convincing to most people) and so losing as a 90/10 favorite is no different than winning as a 90/10 favorite (except you do the latter 9x as often) so there is no real reason to get upset over beats, even a seemingly-neverending series of beats. I think it would be nearly impossible to tell whether I'm stuck 4 racks or up 4 racks based on my demeanor, and if it IS possible, then I take that as an absolute indicator that my session is over, and I need to go home, as I'm playing poorly. The things that please me or upset me during a poker game are only those that I control personally, like how well I play, or how I behave, or how I interact with the other players at the table. If I find myself being rude, thats something I can correct. If I was way off in my read on a players range, that makes me upset. But the dealer turning a heart? A guy slowrolling me, or berating my stupid play, or something?

The only time I get upset about berating or slowrolling is when the douche does it to OTHER players, and I think it might be tightening up the game, or forcing bad players to leave. In those spots I'll usually try to direct his anger or attention towards myself, and make light of myself to diffuse the situation. If that fails I will occasionally get floor involved, or use some harsh language to try to get the guy under control, if he is REALLY threatening to ruin the game.

None of my intentions for any of this are noble.
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Old 02-12-2012, 07:24 PM   #182
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Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

[QUOTE=Small Fry;2261694]You are making a big deal out of nothing, especially at these limits.

However, I think if you want to get your point across in the least offensive way possible then just wait. The other player must show first (assuming he doesn't just fold). If after 5-10 seconds, which is an eternity, the dealer hasn't instructed your opponent to show his hand then I would ask the dealer why said player hasn't acted yet. If the dealer vaguely instructs "players" to turn up their hands then still wait, as it is still on your opponent to show first.


This exactly. If you are calling the river just wait and make the villain show first. Let them flat out throw their hand into the muck, or force them to turn it over imo. There is too much info on showdowns to call and snap flip your hand over, and allow them to muck. GL OP
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Old 02-13-2012, 12:15 PM   #183
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Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

i expect when calling someone that they verbalize their hand or show it. until that time i wait.
if you want tell him i called. or ask the dealer who's turn it is to show. or just wait.

those that quickly flip are players that are recreational players and that is fine. hopefully realizing that winning over the long term is a complete package.
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Old 02-13-2012, 12:30 PM   #184
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Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

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i expect when calling someone that they verbalize their hand or show it. until that time i wait.
if you want tell him i called. or ask the dealer who's turn it is to show. or just wait.

those that quickly flip are players that are recreational players and that is fine. hopefully realizing that winning over the long term is a complete package.
I don't agree with the second sentence. Part of the "complete package" you describe is ensuring that I am creating a fun, fast poker environment that will encourage the recreational players to play looser and return to the games.

There is unquestionably value to the information I lose by not demanding to see my opponents cards. I just believe that the value of flipping quickly has tangible benefits(table image, game environment, etc.) has tangible value. And that value of flipping> value of information.

This probably changes as games get bigger. I play relatively small stakes(up to 5/10). The players are pretty predictable so the information is worth less. And more varied so the information often won't accrue to anything valuable. Also, the fish at these games are much more focused on having fun, than I assume the fish at higher stakes that are at least somewhat more concerned with playing well.
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Old 02-13-2012, 12:52 PM   #185
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Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

I think alot of people who actually wait for the bettor to show first, only do it vs other regs or douche. I would not do this if the bettor was a fish.
All this argeument about scaring away fish/rec players is pointless because I think everyone here knows not to do that vs fish.
Infact I waited to show my hand just this weekend. The bettor was a young reg who raised my turn bet, and then shoved the river. I called with my turned full-house. He said "good hand, I have nothing."
I stayed silent.
He flips over 22 for a pure bluff, I then showed my fullhouse. Of-course he could have just mucked his hand, but he also wanted to see my hand. He can see my hand only after he show his. Rules are rules.
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Old 02-13-2012, 01:40 PM   #186
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I think alot of people who actually wait for the bettor to show first, only do it vs other regs or douche. I would not do this if the bettor was a fish.
All this argeument about scaring away fish/rec players is pointless because I think everyone here knows not to do that vs fish.
Infact I waited to show my hand just this weekend. The bettor was a young reg who raised my turn bet, and then shoved the river. I called with my turned full-house. He said "good hand, I have nothing."
I stayed silent.
He flips over 22 for a pure bluff, I then showed my fullhouse. Of-course he could have just mucked his hand, but he also wanted to see my hand. He can see my hand only after he show his. Rules are rules.
Again stop hiding behind the rules. The rules actually say you are encouraged to show your full house.

You slowrolled because you wanted to. Own it.
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Old 02-13-2012, 01:52 PM   #187
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Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

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I think alot of people who actually wait for the bettor to show first, only do it vs other regs or douche. I would not do this if the bettor was a fish.
All this argeument about scaring away fish/rec players is pointless because I think everyone here knows not to do that vs fish.
Infact I waited to show my hand just this weekend. The bettor was a young reg who raised my turn bet, and then shoved the river. I called with my turned full-house. He said "good hand, I have nothing."
I stayed silent.
He flips over 22 for a pure bluff, I then showed my fullhouse. Of-course he could have just mucked his hand, but he also wanted to see my hand. He can see my hand only after he show his. Rules are rules.
Okay. But there are at least four ways(that I feel stupid repeating because they have been mentioned) that this could affect a fish:

1) The player that you do this to gets mad and creates an uncomfortable game environment. Fish may either 1) leave or 2) stop having fun. When they stop having fun they tighten up and are less likely to come back and are more likely to notice that they are getting crushed. Fish pay for entertainment.

2) The fish get bored waiting for you two clowns to get over your showdown battle. This is a relatively minor concern, but if it is happening every showdown could be a major one.

3) The fish gets the idea this is a very serious game, not a fun recreational one. This can have similar game environment effects as number one.

4) The fish sees what happens when you bluff. You get embarrassed by having to show your hands and focusing all the attention on you.

There are two scenarios here:
1) The fish realizes that you are not asking him to showdown his cards. Being a person with some money to throw away, the fish is often a person of above average intelligence (this likely doesn't apply well to 1/2 and maybe not 2/5), and he figures out what this means. Having fish realize they are fish is bad for the games in the long-run, though it may not be in the short-run as he tries to prove he is not in fact a fish

2)The fish doesn't realize you are not asking him to show down his cards. The fact that you aren't going to do it to him is not especially relevant because he doesn't know that he's the fish you won't do it to. This discourages him from bluffing.Since fish are objectively awful at choosing good times to bluff this is bad for the game.

For me, there is rarely a situation where the value of refining the information I already have (that he was bluffing) is valuable enough to outweigh the above concerns.
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Old 02-13-2012, 02:27 PM   #188
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Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

Im a 40yo guy with a professional job. I think I have a high EQ and pretty socially aware. Played poker for years, live and online.
I think you read too much into things.
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Old 02-13-2012, 02:31 PM   #189
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Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

If I'm SURE I have the best hand, I usually show first regardless.

But, I think pfapfap is too assuming with how confident you should be with your read when calling.

If I called, and didn't raise, it actually most logically means that I think my hand may be good, but, I'm not sure enough to raise.

Bottom line: there are plenty of time I show my hand first, regardless of the action. I don't think I should be required to and don't expect anyone but players with class to do so. I also understand when someone wants someone to muck or show. for whatever reason.

With that said, I don't care AT ALL if it takes an extra 30 seconds or 1 minute. Sometimes you have to force someone to show.

Recently there was one player in my 2/5 game who simply NEVER wanted to show when they're called ALL IN. .. they always wanted to bull****. I made them show every time and when they slowrolled other people I informed the table that they always do that. The guy who got slowrolled felt better and the douche had nothing to say. We'll see how long it continues.
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Old 02-13-2012, 02:34 PM   #190
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Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

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I don't play anywhere near high stakes that much I can tell you
But honestly, I don't get that "unwritten rule" and it doesn't make much sense to me. If he doesn't want to show he can just muck his hand.
He will show it when he has the best hand, so what's the difference?
I think this "I don't want people to get an idea of how I play certain hands"-attitude is just annoying and serves little purpose, especially at the lower stakes. High stakes may be different.
I agree and that's why I turn my hand over immediately at showdown.
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Old 02-13-2012, 02:38 PM   #191
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Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

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Yes, it does make sense. It makes a lot of sense. Have you met many losing players? Better question: why do you play poker? If its for the thrill of vanquishing your overmatched opponent, then I can understand why you arent getting this. If its to make money, then I dunno.
Many recreational players play with the mindset that the few sessions they come out, they have to push any +EV edge they can get for the immediate financial gain. Since they aren't going to be around for the long term or they aren't going to be around regularly, they don't get the concept of Shearing vs. killing sheep. It's ok to go around murdering huge packs of sheep because they get the immediate benefit and aren't around to feel the pain later when they need wool.
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Old 02-13-2012, 03:00 PM   #192
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Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

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Im a 40yo guy with a professional job. I think I have a high EQ and pretty socially aware. Played poker for years, live and online.
I think you read too much into things.
Better than the alternative imo. It just boils down to a subjective determination of value with some non-zero value placed on the fact that I would just rather not deal with showdown wars. For me I'd rather show. For you its the opposite. I can't say if you're right or wrong because I don't know how you value the information or whether in fact the things I think matter actually matter.

But the way I think about it its not worth risking any of those things happening. Most of the money I make playing poker is derived from entertaining fish. They like to give action to people that contribute to them having fun. I am less fun when I'm being a rules nit.

Anyway, this is just another long post basically just saying this is a pointless debate and everyone should just do whatever they think maximizes their long-run value. Or since we have no idea what that is in this situation just do whatever the f you want.

I just hate stupid showdown wars.
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Old 02-13-2012, 03:14 PM   #193
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Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

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Better than the alternative imo. It just boils down to a subjective determination of value with some non-zero value placed on the fact that I would just rather not deal with showdown wars. For me I'd rather show. For you its the opposite. I can't say if you're right or wrong because I don't know how you value the information or whether in fact the things I think matter actually matter.

But the way I think about it its not worth risking any of those things happening. Most of the money I make playing poker is derived from entertaining fish. They like to give action to people that contribute to them having fun. I am less fun when I'm being a rules nit.

Anyway, this is just another long post basically just saying this is a pointless debate and everyone should just do whatever they think maximizes their long-run value. Or since we have no idea what that is in this situation just do whatever the f you want.

I just hate stupid showdown wars.
I only want to defend my right to wait for a showdown without being called a fish, morally unethical, low-limit 1-2 loser, delusional, etc etc
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Old 02-13-2012, 03:24 PM   #194
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Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

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I only want to defend my right to wait for a showdown without being called a fish, morally unethical, low-limit 1-2 loser, delusional, etc etc
I'm not sure if you're referring to me, but if you are, I just said the opposite of those things. The only negative thing I said was referring to the showdown people as "clowns" which was mainly a joke.

I, for one, don't think it makes you any of those things.
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Old 02-13-2012, 03:40 PM   #195
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Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

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I only want to defend my right to wait for a showdown without being called a fish, morally unethical, low-limit 1-2 loser, delusional, etc etc
I will refine (ok, retract) my position a bit, in that I dont think most of the reasonable people who do this are ACTUALLY being douches, I think they are just missing the big picture (and I could be wrong). But SOME players who do this use your same reasoning to justify slowrolling and being a douche.
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Old 02-13-2012, 07:14 PM   #196
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Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

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One more thing, just general showdown tip...

State your hand. Either your hole cards, or, better, how they relate to the board. "I have a straight." or whatever. Even if you're the caller. This speeds things up tremendously.

Once again, to those who are so hung up on the "proper" order... YOU are the person holding up the game. It takes two to tango. The other person may also be holding it up, but by playing that "no YOU show first" game, you're culpable. Table your hand, then it's ALL on the other person.

You're missing the point. It is ALREADY on the other person, because they've bet, and you've called. They should show or muck. Immediately. To sit there and wait for the caller to show is wrong poker play and poor etiquette.

I don't think it's nearly as big a deal in limit games, but that's not the point. The point is...if I've bet, and you've called my hand, then I'm supposed to show you or muck my cards. Period. I'm playing poker to make money. If I want a social game, then I'll play at home with my friends and we'll pull that "you show first!" crap.

FYI, when faced with this problem, I simply state "I called you." I repeat it if necessary. Then I sit quietly and wait.
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Old 02-13-2012, 07:50 PM   #197
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Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

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If I'm SURE I have the best hand, I usually show first regardless.
The word isn't "sure". It's "probable". And it's not "usually", it's always.

As in, "if I probably have the best hand, I always show it". That's what the rules actually tell you that you should do.
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Old 02-13-2012, 07:54 PM   #198
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Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

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I only want to defend my right to wait for a showdown without being called a fish, morally unethical, low-limit 1-2 loser, delusional, etc etc
Nobody denies you have the right to do it. Just that the correct thing to do is not to exercise that right.

(As for "low limit 1-2 loser", I can't emphasize this enough-- if you call and have no idea the range of hands your opponent has, you are not a good poker player. And if you DO know your opponent's range, you don't need to see the opponent's hand as the range estimate is more important than the actual holding.

In other words, you are asking for information that no decent player needs anyway.)
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Old 02-13-2012, 07:55 PM   #199
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Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

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You're missing the point. It is ALREADY on the other person, because they've bet, and you've called. They should show or muck. Immediately. To sit there and wait for the caller to show is wrong poker play and poor etiquette.

I don't think it's nearly as big a deal in limit games, but that's not the point. The point is...if I've bet, and you've called my hand, then I'm supposed to show you or muck my cards. Period. I'm playing poker to make money. If I want a social game, then I'll play at home with my friends and we'll pull that "you show first!" crap.

FYI, when faced with this problem, I simply state "I called you." I repeat it if necessary. Then I sit quietly and wait.
As Gandhi said, an eye for an eye and pretty soon the whole world is blind. You apparently think that it's more important that you win the pissing contest than that there not be one.
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Old 02-13-2012, 08:29 PM   #200
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Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

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You're missing the point. It is ALREADY on the other person, because they've bet, and you've called. They should show or muck. Immediately. To sit there and wait for the caller to show is wrong poker play and poor etiquette.
Yes, I understand that this is the mentality.

You're missing my point: change your mentality.

I don't really care what other people do. That's up to them. I don't let it affect me.

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Originally Posted by Ship It Or Bust View Post
The point is...if I've bet, and you've called my hand, then I'm supposed to show you or muck my cards. Period. I'm playing poker to make money. If I want a social game, then I'll play at home with my friends and we'll pull that "you show first!" crap.
By expecting others to follow the same protocol to which you adhere, you are pulling that "you show first!" crap. That's my point.

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FYI, when faced with this problem, I simply state "I called you." I repeat it if necessary. Then I sit quietly and wait.
How is this not you pulling that "you show first!" crap?
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