Two Plus Two Publishing LLC Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

Live Casino Poker Discussions of the activities, rules and etiquette of Live Casino and Cardroom Poker Venues.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-10-2012, 07:46 PM   #151
vhawk01
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
vhawk01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: GHoFFANMWYD
Posts: 31,573
Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DoTheMath View Post
Once you become a parent of teenagers. you won't find this concept so unusual. In fact the rule book does precisely what you say I want it to do.

What I actually want is for the rules about showdown to go back to what they were about 70 years ago: everybody still in the hand has to show - no mucking allowed. However, that's never going to happen.

Thank-you for making my point for me.
So what you are saying is that while you understand the spirit of the rules, and what you are encouraged to do, you are going to continue to do something because you are not explicitly prohibited from doing it in the rule book?

If only there was a term for such a thing...
vhawk01 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2012, 07:49 PM   #152
vhawk01
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
vhawk01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: GHoFFANMWYD
Posts: 31,573
Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

Quote:
Originally Posted by KJoff View Post
This whole "Making a losing player turn over his cards is bad etiquette"-bs has to go, it just doesn't make any sense.
Yes, it does make sense. It makes a lot of sense. Have you met many losing players? Better question: why do you play poker? If its for the thrill of vanquishing your overmatched opponent, then I can understand why you arent getting this. If its to make money, then I dunno.
Quote:

I paid to see his cards so I have the right to see them
yes, you have this "right." You have a lot of rights at the poker table. Exercising all of them is rarely in your best interest.
Quote:
, conversation over.
Apparently not.
Quote:
It's not my problem villain is embarrassed to show his pathetic attempt of a bluff to the table, everybody knows hes full of it anyway when that happens.
Yes...it is your problem. Very much so.
vhawk01 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2012, 07:51 PM   #153
vhawk01
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
vhawk01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: GHoFFANMWYD
Posts: 31,573
Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

Quote:
Originally Posted by KJoff View Post
I don't play anywhere near high stakes that much I can tell you
But honestly, I don't get that "unwritten rule" and it doesn't make much sense to me. If he doesn't want to show he can just muck his hand.
He will show it when he has the best hand, so what's the difference?
I think this "I don't want people to get an idea of how I play certain hands"-attitude is just annoying and serves little purpose, especially at the lower stakes. High stakes may be different.
I think the problem is more that you fundamentally dont understand what the point of poker is, for some people. Do you get frustrated by bad beats? Berate players for bad play?
vhawk01 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2012, 09:04 PM   #154
pfapfap
HP JoY 2011 wienerbucket
 
pfapfap's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: ...
Posts: 22,539
Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

Quote:
Originally Posted by KJoff View Post
I don't play anywhere near high stakes that much I can tell you
But honestly, I don't get that "unwritten rule" and it doesn't make much sense to me.
Well, if you're interested in understanding it, there's been a lot written about it. I can say from my own experience dealing poker, that higher stakes players tend to understand and respect this etiquette guideline. At least, in my experience, which is only my own. Someone else may have observed different behavior.
pfapfap is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2012, 09:15 PM   #155
SGT RJ
Inspecting members
 
SGT RJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Mourning Spock. And Snape.
Posts: 45,511
Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lawdude View Post
Why do you keep pretending the rules don't tell people to show probable winners first, when in fact they do?
Because this has already been covered. "Encouraged" does not mean "you must show".

Why do you keep ignoring this fact, as well as the fact that the rules explicitly state that the person who is called is supposed to show first (or muck)?
SGT RJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2012, 09:22 PM   #156
vhawk01
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
vhawk01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: GHoFFANMWYD
Posts: 31,573
Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

Definitely possible for two people to be dbags at the same time.

Less likely to be possible is doing X, saying "yes, but X is not technically forbidden by the rules" and not be a dbag
vhawk01 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2012, 09:37 PM   #157
SGT RJ
Inspecting members
 
SGT RJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Mourning Spock. And Snape.
Posts: 45,511
Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

Why all the concern about protecting embarrassed fish from showing first (as being bad for the game by scaring them away)?

Isn't it possible for the caller to be embarrassed by a loose call as well? Or for the hesitating "embarrassed" bettor to be slow rolling? If I call down with middle pair **** kicker because I thought villain was bluffing and turned out to be wrong, don't I want to protect myself from giving away information to the entire table about my hand strength given the board texture and action by mucking without showing once the bettor's (and winner) hand is revealed?

I honestly don't get the the label of douche or nit or whatever being thrown against a caller who wants the "bettor shows first" rule to be enforced. As long as the caller isn't slow rolling with the nuts, I think the VAST majority of irritation at the hand being stalled should be directed at the bettor.

I mean there are always exceptions, and I stress again that this is relatively rare (if I'm positive I have the best hand I just flip it over once the betting is done regardless of position), but it really seems like everyone is assuming that the caller is always in the wrong for wanting the actual hand showdown protocol enforced, and that hasn't been my experience at all.
SGT RJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2012, 12:30 AM   #158
Jigsaw
veteran
 
Jigsaw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: I'm waiting for you
Posts: 2,229
Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic View Post
+1

Why is this so hard? If they say something like "I missed" or "you're good" I just look at them and wait for them to either show or muck.
Why is this so hard? If they say something like "I missed" or "You're good" I just table my hand, and accept the pot when it's pushed to me.
Jigsaw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2012, 12:58 AM   #159
woowoo
centurion
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lote View Post
What about just staring at them (1-2 minutes) until they flip over their hand? I like those 20 second silent stare down sessions--the longer the better. Esp. when there is a time charge.
Bingo! Be silent and let the dealer do his job.
woowoo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2012, 02:59 AM   #160
sexdotcom
Pooh-Bah
 
sexdotcom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Funny, It Worked Last Time...
Posts: 3,856
Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jigsaw View Post
Why is this so hard? If they say something like "I missed" or "You're good" I just table my hand, and accept the pot when it's pushed to me.
Then just muck the hand. Why are you holding on to them?
The onus is on the last agressor.
sexdotcom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2012, 04:49 AM   #161
DoTheMath
Pooh-Bah
 
DoTheMath's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: At my computer
Posts: 4,564
Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

Quote:
Originally Posted by vhawk01 View Post
So what you are saying is that while you understand the spirit of the rules, and what you are encouraged to do, you are going to continue to do something because you are not explicitly prohibited from doing it in the rule book?

If only there was a term for such a thing...
If only there was a term for people who puts words in one's mouth.

No, I am not "going to continue" doing it. I am reserving the possibility that I might do it on rare occaision. I haven't delibertately waited my turn to show yet this year. I don't remember doing it last year. I may have done it half a dozen times in my life.

I think I understand the spirit of the rules better than anybody who makes the arguiment that, because the rules encourage something, one must always do it. When a ruleset does not require something, but does encourage it, you are allowed to not do it, but you should have a good reason, and your shouldn't do it very often.

If the rules meant to require showing first, they would. They don't. Why is that?

I entered this thread to debate a misstatement of the meaning of the rules. My point was the rules encourage showing quckly when you have a good hand, but that they don't require it. Since everybody now seems to agree with that position, it is merely left to discuss how often is acceptable, and what reasons are acceptable. I don't think those matters have definitive answers.
DoTheMath is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2012, 05:54 AM   #162
Dominic
Tripod
 
Dominic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Vegas
Posts: 57,820
Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jigsaw View Post
Why is this so hard? If they say something like "I missed" or "You're good" I just table my hand, and accept the pot when it's pushed to me.
If they do say "I missed" I will show. But if they say "you're good," I don't know what they're saying that with. They could have a hand better than me. It's up to them to show first. That's the rule.

And if they want to muck before I show, I will let them. I've won a few pots that way when the other player decides to much out of turn instead of showing when I missed, too.

Plus, I've been slow-rolled often enough when I don't do this that I decided that's not going to happen again.
Dominic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2012, 06:45 AM   #163
DoTheMath
Pooh-Bah
 
DoTheMath's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: At my computer
Posts: 4,564
Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lawdude View Post
You are knocking down a strawman. I never said that the rulebook prohibited douchebags from holding up the game by insisting on the order of showdown when they have a probable winner. The right to be a jerk in that situation is absolutely protected.

What I said is that the rulebook also says that what you SHOULD do is not be a suppository and instead show your hand. You aren't required to. You can be a doofus if you wish and not do it. That's always your choice. But the RIGHT choice is to show.
You are the one putting forward the straw men.

What you said was
Quote:
The way I read the rules is that if I think my hand is likely to be good, I'm supposed to show it. That's what the rules actually say.
That is not what the rules actually say. I quoted the actual rule to you. Neither is it what the rules actually mean. Websters defines" supposed to" as "expected to or obligated to". "Obligated to" means you must do it - you are required to do it. Before, you wrote words that are equivalent to "the rule requires you to show". Now you agree that it is not a requirement. You try to distract from this by raising the implication that not doing what the rules encourage you to do is always and necessarily wrong. The rules don't say that and the rules don't imply that. It can be, and it might not be. It depends on the circumstances.

Because the rules allow you to wait your turn, it is reasonable to assume that the rules contemplate that sometimes waiting your turn is OK. What the rules actually say is
Quote:
8. If everyone checks (or is all-in) on the final betting round, the player who acted first is the first to show the hand. If there is wagering on the final betting round, the last player to take aggressive action by a bet or raise is the first to show the hand. In order to speed up the game, a player holding a probable winner is encouraged to show the hand without delay.
There are times when speeding up the game is not the highest good.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lawdude View Post
While you are correct that originally all hands were tabled at showdown, you are incorrect that any set of rules ever said that players who call bets at showdown are paying for information.
This is you next fabrication. I never said "any set of rules ever said that players who call bets at showdown are paying for information".

Quote:
Originally Posted by lawdude View Post
They are paying for the right to a share of the pot.
Where does it say that in the rules? It doesn't. It is a logicial concluson you arrived at by following the operation of the rules. Well, it is also a logcal concusion that players who call a bet get (along with all the other players dealt in) the opportunity to see the other players' hand. Whether they made the call in order to see the hand or in order to have a chance to win the pot (or both) is not determined by the rules at all. It is determined by the motivatin of the player making the call.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lawdude View Post
Quote:
While even then there may have been an argument that strictly speaking you were paying to have a chance to win the pot, it was an avoidable fact that if you called, you got to see the other hand.
The second clause of that sentence is true. But it wasn't true because you "paid" for it.
Actually the second clause is false, because it contans a typo. It should have said "unavoidable".

No set of rules I have ever read says you are paying for anything. Neither do they say what you are not paying for. If a person calls (under the old rules) they will see the hands of any other player who is still in at showdown. Hence there is a cause and effect relationship between calling, and seeing the other players' hands. Therefore a person who calls for the purpose of invoking that relationship has paid to see the hand, even if the rules don't put it that way.

In the phrase "pay to see" the prepositon "to" means "for the purpose of". The rules do not address purpose, they address effect. If you call, they will show. They show because that's what the rules said they must do if you called. They showed because you paid.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lawdude View Post
A simple example will show this. Everyone else at the table ALSO gets to see all hands at showdown under that rule. (Indeed, under current rules, anyone at the table can STILL request to see all hands, although the right can be taken away if abused.) In other words, people who under your theory DID NOT "pay" for the information still get it. That makes no sense.
Of course it makes sense. The rules require that when one shows a hand, one shows it to all players. Only the callers paid but all get to see. Ever go to a diner that has an old-fashioned juke box? Only one person at a time pays for a song, but everybody gets to hear it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lawdude View Post
Whereas under my theory these people get the information simply because there is a rule that says everyone has to show their hands at showdown.
No, those people only got to see a hand if the rule is triggered by the action of a caller. It requires both the rule and the act of calling. The act of calling triggers the effect specified by the rule. The rule itelf is not an actor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lawdude View Post
I think I demonstrated above that the rulebook is inconsistent with the claim that people who are calling are paying for the information. If that were actually correct, there would be no IWTSTH rule and no encouragement to show a probable winner first.
No, you didn't.

Alos, the IWTSTH rule is not relevent to the example I gave about "paying to see" under the old showdown rules.

The IWTSTH rule did not exist at the same time as the old rule that requried all hands at showdown to show, and neither did the encouragement to show probable winners first. Both are innovations introduced together post-WWII to speed up the game. The IWTSTH rule was introduced along with players being allowed to muck at showdown. It was introduced to retain the rights a player has always had to see a hand that went to showdown, but to make it the exception, so usually showdowns would go faster.
DoTheMath is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2012, 06:47 AM   #164
pfapfap
HP JoY 2011 wienerbucket
 
pfapfap's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: ...
Posts: 22,539
Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DoTheMath View Post
My point was the rules encourage showing quckly when you have a good hand, but that they don't require it. Since everybody now seems to agree with that position, it is merely left to discuss how often is acceptable, and what reasons are acceptable. I don't think those matters have definitive answers.
I agree with this. There are always exceptions, but they are that. The line is different for everybody, but I think if we all respect this custom, we set a good standard, and can respect when someone finds need to wait. I only challenge people to keep pushing back their line for exceptions, to keep them improving their overall observational and hand-reading skills.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic View Post
If they do say "I missed" I will show. But if they say "you're good," I don't know what they're saying that with. They could have a hand better than me.
You're calling too much.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic View Post
Plus, I've been slow-rolled often enough when I don't do this that I decided that's not going to happen again.
I can't even remember the last time I saw a slowroll. I've seen plenty of people get irritated at perceived slowrolls, but legitimate deliberate needling slowrolls are incredibly rare.
pfapfap is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2012, 11:18 AM   #165
SGT RJ
Inspecting members
 
SGT RJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Mourning Spock. And Snape.
Posts: 45,511
Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pfapfap View Post
I agree with this. There are always exceptions, but they are that. The line is different for everybody, but I think if we all respect this custom, we set a good standard, and can respect when someone finds need to wait. I only challenge people to keep pushing back their line for exceptions, to keep them improving their overall observational and hand-reading skills.



I can't even remember the last time I saw a slowroll. I've seen plenty of people get irritated at perceived slowrolls, but legitimate deliberate needling slowrolls are incredibly rare.
Fair enough. I knew underneath you were a pretty reasonable guy. ;0

Although your last bit made me lol, I saw a guy slow roll with quads the last time I played. Apparently I need to get off the kiddie tables.
SGT RJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2012, 12:20 PM   #166
vhawk01
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
vhawk01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: GHoFFANMWYD
Posts: 31,573
Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SGT RJ View Post
Why all the concern about protecting embarrassed fish from showing first (as being bad for the game by scaring them away)?

Isn't it possible for the caller to be embarrassed by a loose call as well?
Well sure. If you are embarrassed about your call, then you are probably a fish too, and I'd have to revise my advice, as I'd like to protect your feelings too, in my game.
Quote:
Or for the hesitating "embarrassed" bettor to be slow rolling? If I call down with middle pair **** kicker because I thought villain was bluffing and turned out to be wrong, don't I want to protect myself from giving away information to the entire table about my hand strength given the board texture and action by mucking without showing once the bettor's (and winner) hand is revealed?
Maybe we play in different games, but I think this is just such a trivial concern, its not like you are incorrect or anything, I just dont know that its really worth worrying about.
Quote:
I honestly don't get the the label of douche or nit or whatever being thrown against a caller who wants the "bettor shows first" rule to be enforced. As long as the caller isn't slow rolling with the nuts, I think the VAST majority of irritation at the hand being stalled should be directed at the bettor.
True, of course, but that guy sucks, and is good for the game, so who cares what he does? You cant control others, only yourself. There are only certain ways you can impact the quality of your game, and making bad players comfortable and happy is one of them.
Quote:
I mean there are always exceptions, and I stress again that this is relatively rare (if I'm positive I have the best hand I just flip it over once the betting is done regardless of position), but it really seems like everyone is assuming that the caller is always in the wrong for wanting the actual hand showdown protocol enforced, and that hasn't been my experience at all.
Like I said, no reason at all there cant be two players "in the wrong" at the same time. Its not zero sum. Of course the guy should show his hand, but he doesnt want to. You should think about why you want him to, what the consequences of that will be, and if they are worth it.

Its my opinion that it is almost never worth it, and so I just always table my hand instantly, or as soon as I think to do so (like sometimes I will say call, and then if he is turning his hand over right away I will be too busy looking at his and seeing what he has to INSTANTLY turn mine over).
vhawk01 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2012, 12:24 PM   #167
vhawk01
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
vhawk01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: GHoFFANMWYD
Posts: 31,573
Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DoTheMath View Post
If only there was a term for people who puts words in one's mouth.

No, I am not "going to continue" doing it. I am reserving the possibility that I might do it on rare occaision.
LOL, oh well in that case its DEFINITELY not an angle, not if you are only going to reserve the possibility of doing it on a rare occasion.
Quote:
I haven't delibertately waited my turn to show yet this year. I don't remember doing it last year. I may have done it half a dozen times in my life.

I think I understand the spirit of the rules better than anybody who makes the arguiment that, because the rules encourage something, one must always do it. When a ruleset does not require something, but does encourage it, you are allowed to not do it, but you should have a good reason, and your shouldn't do it very often.
Literally the definition of angling...
Quote:
If the rules meant to require showing first, they would. They don't. Why is that?
The rules describe how things should routinely progress, and the guy who is called should show first. However, when you think you have the best hand (which is almost by definition true since you called) then you should just open in a timely fashion, timely meaning 2-3 seconds.
Quote:
I entered this thread to debate a misstatement of the meaning of the rules. My point was the rules encourage showing quckly when you have a good hand, but that they don't require it. Since everybody now seems to agree with that position, it is merely left to discuss how often is acceptable, and what reasons are acceptable. I don't think those matters have definitive answers.
Give me examples of some of these reasons you think it would be acceptable to just wait and demand the other guy shows first, even knowing you probably have the winner, I'm excited to hear them.
vhawk01 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2012, 12:27 PM   #168
vhawk01
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
vhawk01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: GHoFFANMWYD
Posts: 31,573
Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic View Post
If they do say "I missed" I will show. But if they say "you're good," I don't know what they're saying that with. They could have a hand better than me. It's up to them to show first. That's the rule.

And if they want to muck before I show, I will let them. I've won a few pots that way when the other player decides to much out of turn instead of showing when I missed, too.

Plus, I've been slow-rolled often enough when I don't do this that I decided that's not going to happen again.
I guess I'm starting to understand you guys a little bit better now. If being slow-rolled actually bothers you, then I guess I could see taking steps to protect your ego or emotional state or whatever, especially if those steps are within the rules, as has been pointed out.

It just stuns me a little bit to think that it could actually bother you to be slowrolled, if you take poker seriously at all. I've been slowrolled so many times, and it ranges from neutral to absolutely hilarious every time. I have never been slowrolled by a player who was better than me, so its universally a good sign for the game.
vhawk01 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2012, 12:30 PM   #169
vhawk01
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
vhawk01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: GHoFFANMWYD
Posts: 31,573
Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pfapfap View Post

I can't even remember the last time I saw a slowroll. I've seen plenty of people get irritated at perceived slowrolls, but legitimate deliberate needling slowrolls are incredibly rare.
I look young and talk a lot, and play with a lot of grumpy old dudes. I get slowrolled like on a weekly basis, haha.
vhawk01 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2012, 12:50 PM   #170
SGT RJ
Inspecting members
 
SGT RJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Mourning Spock. And Snape.
Posts: 45,511
Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

Quote:
Originally Posted by vhawk01 View Post
Well sure. If you are embarrassed about your call, then you are probably a fish too, and I'd have to revise my advice, as I'd like to protect your feelings too, in my game.
I'm closer to a fish than I am a shark, I'll say that.
SGT RJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2012, 05:03 PM   #171
pfapfap
HP JoY 2011 wienerbucket
 
pfapfap's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: ...
Posts: 22,539
Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SGT RJ View Post
Although your last bit made me lol, I saw a guy slow roll with quads the last time I played. Apparently I need to get off the kiddie tables.
I primarily deal kiddie tables. I see more people upset at a perceived slowroll than I see actual intentional slowrolls.

Is it possible the guy with quads was just making sure the pot was right and there were no more players in the hand? We have another active thread where someone had a big problem from exposing cards too quickly due to thinking the hand was over when it wasn't. Most "slowrolls" are people double checking to make sure the hand is truly over.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vhawk01 View Post
It just stuns me a little bit to think that it could actually bother you to be slowrolled, if you take poker seriously at all. I've been slowrolled so many times, and it ranges from neutral to absolutely hilarious every time. I have never been slowrolled by a player who was better than me, so its universally a good sign for the game.
I understand why it stings. It's from expectation clashing with reality. That's the cause of most anger anywhere, I feel.

This is why when I'm in a pot, I don't expect to win until I'm the last player with a live hand. Even if we're all-in and exposed and I have top set vs a backdoor gutshot, I fully expect that unlikely hand to beat me. I suspect you have a similar perspective.

That way, if I lose, it matches expectation. I don't get tilted or angry. When I win, it exceeds expectation, so I'm happy.

So many people choose perspectives that tend to lead to unhappiness and frustration. Poker players often seem to like setting themselves up for anger. I like to be happy, so I do what I can to set myself up for happiness.
pfapfap is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2012, 06:06 PM   #172
vhawk01
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
vhawk01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: GHoFFANMWYD
Posts: 31,573
Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pfapfap View Post


I understand why it stings. It's from expectation clashing with reality. That's the cause of most anger anywhere, I feel.

This is why when I'm in a pot, I don't expect to win until I'm the last player with a live hand. Even if we're all-in and exposed and I have top set vs a backdoor gutshot, I fully expect that unlikely hand to beat me. I suspect you have a similar perspective.

That way, if I lose, it matches expectation. I don't get tilted or angry. When I win, it exceeds expectation, so I'm happy.

So many people choose perspectives that tend to lead to unhappiness and frustration. Poker players often seem to like setting themselves up for anger. I like to be happy, so I do what I can to set myself up for happiness.
I understand fundamentally why its a dick move, why douchebags do it, and why casual poker players get offended or upset about it. Of course its upsetting, in a vacuum. But after you've been playing poker for a little while, and once you start to think about the big picture, it quickly loses all its sting. It doesnt ACTUALLY change whether you win or lose, you still win exactly the same % of the time, the same dollar amounts, its just theatrics. The only downside to being slowrolled is that it is just a few less hands per hour, which is unfortunate, but if that guy can justify donking off 4 racks because he got what he came for, his "In your face!" moment, that more than makes up for it.

As the hand progresses, my confidence in my chances of winning wax and wane, but they really dont change that much between the time that action is over and the time that the cards are tabled/pot is pushed, no matter how long that time is.

I think your last paragraph is perfect.
vhawk01 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2012, 06:27 PM   #173
DoTheMath
Pooh-Bah
 
DoTheMath's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: At my computer
Posts: 4,564
Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

Quote:
Originally Posted by vhawk01 View Post
LOL, oh well in that case its DEFINITELY not an angle, not if you are only going to reserve the possibility of doing it on a rare occasion.

Literally the definition of angling...
It would appear you don't know the definition pf angling.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vhawk01 View Post
Give me examples of some of these reasons you think it would be acceptable to just wait and demand the other guy shows first, even knowing you probably have the winner, I'm excited to hear them.
Do you know the GTO strategy for repeated Prisoner's Dilemma?
DoTheMath is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2012, 06:41 PM   #174
vhawk01
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
vhawk01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: GHoFFANMWYD
Posts: 31,573
Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DoTheMath View Post
It would appear you don't know the definition pf angling.

Do you know the GTO strategy for repeated Prisoner's Dilemma?
Yes...? Please dont tell me you think that the scenarios are analogous? LOL if you are trying to win the game of "who shows down first" and adopting a tit-for-tat strategy, just I mean I dont even...

Maybe I really do play poker is a parallel world, but....are most of the players you play against good? Think about the big picture, and what your ultimate aim is. Winning these tete-a-tete battles, heck even winning HANDS and POTS, are not the point of poker, at least not to me. Its about winning money. And these kinds of things hurt your winrate.

Last edited by vhawk01; 02-11-2012 at 06:48 PM.
vhawk01 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2012, 06:53 PM   #175
SGT RJ
Inspecting members
 
SGT RJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Mourning Spock. And Snape.
Posts: 45,511
Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pfapfap View Post
I primarily deal kiddie tables. I see more people upset at a perceived slowroll than I see actual intentional slowrolls.

Is it possible the guy with quads was just making sure the pot was right and there were no more players in the hand? We have another active thread where someone had a big problem from exposing cards too quickly due to thinking the hand was over when it wasn't. Most "slowrolls" are people double checking to make sure the hand is truly over.



I understand why it stings. It's from expectation clashing with reality. That's the cause of most anger anywhere, I feel.

This is why when I'm in a pot, I don't expect to win until I'm the last player with a live hand. Even if we're all-in and exposed and I have top set vs a backdoor gutshot, I fully expect that unlikely hand to beat me. I suspect you have a similar perspective.

That way, if I lose, it matches expectation. I don't get tilted or angry. When I win, it exceeds expectation, so I'm happy.

So many people choose perspectives that tend to lead to unhappiness and frustration. Poker players often seem to like setting themselves up for anger. I like to be happy, so I do what I can to set myself up for happiness.

Well, given that he pretended to muck before flipping over the quads, I'm pretty sure it was a slow roll.

Incidentally, I think you're pretty much spot on about why so many people tilt so very, very hard.
SGT RJ is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:14 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO v2.0.33 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2016 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright ę 2008-2010, Two Plus Two Interactive
 
 
Poker Players - Streaming Live Online