I feel like a broken record in B&M today, but it doesn't matter who it reflects poorly on. Situations where people are mad make the poker table a not-fun environment. Non-fun environments make fish not have fun. This may or may not make them leave, but I can say from personal experience fish play significantly worse when they are having a good time.

Even in the relatively emotionless situation you are describing you are creating a period of time that is both tense and boring. If you think you're going to win, flip your hand over. If not don't. You lose very little value flipping your hand over in this scenario(you have called with a relatively strong hand).

The nits are bad for the game in certain ways. But saying "they're bad for the game so **** them" is not the way to handle things imo. The way to handle it is do whatever you can do, obviously without sacrificing value, to minimize the negative effects on the game. One thing you can do is not get into these stupid showdown wars.

As has been mentioned a couple times in this thread, this is simply not true in many(most?) casinos.

There is a distinction between casinos where you are allowed to muck and win. I think its much more acceptable to force them to show or muck first because there is now some chance that your hand can indeed be good and you won't have to show. I still don't think I would make a big deal out of it because i think the overwhelming majority of the time its not worth it. But i could at least see some argument for refusing to show first in that case even when you thought you were good.

why would you not want extra info on your opponent? this game is all about making assumptions on incomplete info. every bit helps. if i call, they better show their damn hand or muck it. plane and simple. rules are ****ing rules ffs people.

A bit of a rehash of the thread so far, but I would simply say three things:

1) The general custom I have observed is to, the majority of the time, showdown and allow your opponent to muck in this situation. Generally we follow customs that are widely accepted even if they are slightly detrimental to us( in life and poker)

2) In my opinion any small value you get out of seeing the hand is offset by making the game a bad environment to play in and wasting time that you could otherwise spend playing poker.

3) On a related note, poker should be fun. I don't find these ******ed showdown stare-downs to be fun so in order to ensure that I have fun I try to avoid them. Poker is, and should be, about more than just "what is the most +EV thing I can do this very moment"

Grunching (just noticed who OP is).

This happens to me so often that I've got several ways of handling it none of which involve the floor which is over the top, imo.

Sometimes I flip my hand w/o waiting, sometimes I just stare at the other player, sometimes I lean my chair back w/ my hands behind my head and sometimes I'll ask the table 'Does anybody want to talk about something while we wait for this person?'

This doesn't bother me as much as it seems it does you. To me it's a minor aggravation compared to so many others and it happens so often that there's no stopping it. My suggestion is to just let it go and don't expect 'them' to understand the rules or to necessarily be considerate to the other players.

Bear in mind, every poker room rulebook I have ever seen says in one way or another that players who believe they have the winning hand should table it immediately at showdown.

So the general perspective of rulebook authors is that if you think you are good, you should show.

So you enjoy loosing money? cause that's what this game is all about. making money.

If that's what you got out of my post I simply can't do anything further to help you.

If its someone who i want to see thier cards (for whatever reason) ill just say "i called you" and look at them, will not flip my hand until i see thiers.

Wow this gem hidden in a host of replies [4 years after this thread got started]

I think most people are focused on the wrong thing here. The real question is: are you a winning or losing player?

If you are a winning player then the object of the game should be to play as many hands as possible. This won't be accomplished by calling the Floor over or by having the Dealer ultimately handle it [which most dealers are reluctant to do because it will likely affect their tips from one player or the other].

In fact, turning your hand over at the first signs of capitulation will get the next hand started sooner than any other tactic you can employ. It will also leave the other player less embarrassed and more beholden to you. It will also provide an environment where you will get the same benefit if you so desire to withhold a particular hand from the table after bluffing. Furthermore as a winning player you could probably deduce what the other guy has or just note the frequency at which he bluffs the river...

If you are a losing player I am going to guess that the real motivation behind making your opponent show is that it enables you to win something. The information obviously hasn't been helping you that much anyway. And it does does take extra time to let your opponent know who's the boss so you are kind of killing two birds with one stone.

Furthermore at 3/6 LHE are we seriously trying to figure out how somebody else is playing their hands? Do they even know? FTR I play 20/40 LHE regularly and there are very few players whose hands I would demand to see. Only out of reciprocal picque or maybe in a NL tournament to tweak somebody who has been bullying.

It actually doesn't bother me anymore. I bumped this thread because it was the first one I made on 2+2 and I didn't want it to be lost in the archives at the end of the month when the new software upgrade comes. (We can discuss that issue further in the low-content thread or ATF if people are interested in the details. You also can check the sticky thread in Other Other Topics for more info.)

It's been really fun seeing people's reactions to the thread and also how much my own views have changed through the influence of the community here and my experience at the tables.

I didn't realize it was an archive bump. I'm going to have to check OP dates for the next month . Still, it's interesting what a change of perspective can occur after a few years of experience.

Actually, not that I buy into the frame that showing quick really costs us any money (the "information" isn't that valuable, whereas playing more hands an hour, if you are a winning player, IS valuable), but in actuality live poker is NOT about "making money" in the sense of squeezing every drop of EV out of the game. There are social conventions in live poker as well. Some of them are written in the rules (if you table a hand, someone else tables a better hand, and the dealer pushes the pot to you, you are supposed to speak up and give up that pot, even if nobody else at the table realizes the error), some of them are not but everyone understands them (you don't selectively chop, even though it might be +EV to do so).

If you view live poker as "all about making money" in the sense that you believe that you should push every tiny perceived EV edge at your disposal, even at the risk of alienating other players and slowing down the game, you actually DO NOT understand what live poker is "all about".

i read your post. i read the whole thread. and you go and make some ridiculous statement that poker is not about making the most +ev decision. thats absurd on so many levels its just laughable.


but apparently lots of ppl itt like pissing money away for the sake of making ppl happy. i dont go to casinos to have a good time i go to win some sweet sweet $$$$$. if i wanted to go to a casino to have fun id play craps/blackjack. i play poker because i believe i have an edge over the majority that allows me to make money. who the **** doesnt want to make money? thats the root of this game...

It's funny how someone thinking a level higher looks exactly like someone thinking a level lower.

I say "you got to muck or show". if they muck than you can scoop the pot w/o showing your hand (at least at every room i've played) which is usually better than seeing their hand as you know its a bluff anyways. if there's a particularly weird line they took and want to see what draw they were on if it was total air what they 3b with etc than I ask them to show first since they were called if it goes a couple seconds without showing. Never had any complaints or the floor to come... sometimes a discussion about etiquette breaks out for showing hands but I don't feel like its unfriendly in anyway. Its much worse to show your hand and than ask to see theirs even though they were suppose to show first anyways IMO and sometimes makes the table uncomfortable and can lose you some action/soft play later (or tilt them if you are trying to and it works for your game). Interesting point is that at some rooms even if you called some1s turn bet if river goes check/check and your first to act you have to open first so just something to consider if theres a reason why someone isn't showing in that situation habitually you should find out the casino rules (most i've played last agressor has to open 1st though).

Here's a similar situation, but at 5/10. Note that the rest of the table understood the convention immediately. They have zero patience for showdown staredowns. None of the stuff we see in these 1/2 threads.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/27.../#post31395766

Here's what I do that avoids some of the problems you mentioned.

I have a card protector on my cards and my hands are on my lap or otherwise not near my cards. I simply sit there and.... do nothing at all. Blank stare.

The dealer will take control eventually and you won't have to say anything douchey at all. Just sit and let the rules take care of themselves. If the dealer says "let's go guys" (which he shouldn't) just sit there.

Pretty soon everyone at the table will get the idea and it won't take very long on future hands. If the dealer is truly so clueless that he doesn't get it (rare, but possible) then wait for him to call the floor, or you can quietly suggest he call the floor to clear up whatever is causing the current confusing (again, avoid saying anything about the rules yourself, act semi-clueless. Just look confused as to what's taking so long.)

Either the dealer or the floor will explain it to the other players.

I agree, but some people confuse assertiveness with aggressiveness, and therefore rudeness. I prefer the silent approach. But to each his own.

Glancing over at a cocktail waitress or the TV is less aggressive. I'm simply there to play poker fairly and by the rules, is the impression I'm trying to give.

This of course, is entirely logical and valid. Always ignore the rules (if ethical and allowed) if it's to your benefit.

Another really good point in favor of just flipping.

This.

I didn't realize I do this until I read this reply. I instinctively do this too.

ie... If a player is affecting the game in a bad way, I will use this as a bit of a needle to settle them. I do it politely, either in silence, or at times I'll use the "I called you" statement. Sometimes just waiting does the trick. My EV goes up with this player after this happens. They either target me, or fear me, or both, and I welcome it.

But when its a friendly fish who wasn't trying to angle, and I won't gain any edge by seeing their hand, I will table right away, or at least verbally declare my hand in a nice way. We move on quickly and all are happy.

As soon as the action closes, whether I called or was called, I instantly table my hand. It avoids any stress or confusion or douchbaggery on either side. It is probably a very small leak, for the reasons mentioned, but honestly it matters so little, it is easily made up for in peace of mind. It is rarely in your best interest to humiliate a bluffer into tightening up. I am immune to being slowrolled, so I dont give a **** about that. I try not to ever play poker with people who could actually make profitable the knowledge that I called with second pair and lost instead of "called with something, probably second pair" and lost.

Amusingly, some guy at Harrahs in STL a couple weekends ago thought I was trying to angle because I bluffed a river with like 4 high and then instantly tabled it, "confidently" I guess (although just routinely, imo), and the dealer thought I must have had a straight or something. The guy who called me almost mucked his hand because I tabled it so quickly, lol.

In other words, thanks to you i play less hands an hour and showdown takes forever.

just table your damned hand. Insisting on the order of showdown when you have a decent hand is slowrolling and there isn't a single player i consider to be good who does this.

The rule is that you are to table any hand immediately that is a probable winner.

That's written in the same rule that sets out the order of showdown. Disobeying rules you don't want to follow is not following the rules.

As I posted in the other thread, read the rules as if you're reading the narration of a nature documentary. They're not the instructions to set up nature, they're an observation and record of it.

"...here we have... the... poker game... reaching its showdown ritual... basic agreement is that hands are shown in a clockwise manner, however it is customary for a winner to show immediately, regardless of his place in this order. Failure to abide by these customs risks severely aggravating the herd, and can lead to social exile."

Or whatever. Give it a breathy British dude voice.

This depends a lot on who the villain is, but if I want the information on what my opponent is betting and I'm the caller, I'm waiting for him/her to either show or muck, and quite frankly I don't give a rats ass if anyone doesn't like it or not.

Putting people on hands/ranges is difficult (for me), so in a situation where I've paid for the privilege of getting some information on a specific opponent, the only reason I'm not getting it is if they muck.

To be clear, I never do this when I have the nuts, nor do I ever hesitate to show when I'm the better, even if I've just been called on a bluff - I usually say "you're good" WHILE SHOWING MY UNSUCCESSFUL BLUFF. But vs. specific villains where I feel the information would be helpful in future hands, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect them to follow the rules (the same rules I follow by showing immediately after I'm called, EVERY SINGLE TIME).

Last time I was playing in AC I called an all-in OTR vs. another female player with bottom two pair and refused to show until she did, and she made some comments after the fact (I busted her and she did not rebuy), but nobody else seemed particularly bothered. While I strongly suspected I had the best hand, I wanted to see what she was playing that she would raise pre, bet/call a raise OTF, then lead strong for the next two streets. Had she rebought (and I had every reason to suspect she might, as she had already bought in a couple of other times for $100 a pop and stayed in after busting), that knowledge would have been useful in future hands, and I wasn't giving up that information (that I paid to have) willingly.

If you're calling for information, you're calling too much. I hear every day a variation of, "Well, you probably got me, but I just want to see." These players lose.

I don't play tourneys too much any more, but when I did, I more than once heard, "Well, I'm short, but you're such a nice guy, if I'm going to lose, might as well be to you." People get tired in tournaments, and they want to leave feeling good. They're more likely to make a loose call against the nice guy, than against the person who makes people angry.

This doesn't only affect casual gamblers. In one tourney, another savvy player with a huge chip advantage re-raised to isolate my shove, after someone else called my bet. He knew he'd probably get better hands to fold and that I had a wide range. He had garbage, my hand held up. Based on our interactions through the evening, I have a feeling he was also trying to help me out.

There's a lot of value in being the nice person at the table. Remember, you're not only getting reads off of the players you beat: everybody at the table is making a decision about you.