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Old 02-02-2012, 05:04 PM   #76
OneCrazyDuck
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Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

My vote is "flip your hand over". You'll win 100% of the hands he doesn't show, so fun on that. As has been said on here before, if you never see the cards of your opponents ever again, you'll be a wealthy man.

If you're in the mood to make him show, try to invoke IWTSTH or get a floor ruling on him having to show first, but remember that this will: scare away fish, ruin the friendly nature of the game, get people gunning for you, take a long time, and cost you pots that you would've won otherwise.

If you think the benefits of the information you'll get outweigh all of the negatives, fill your boots.
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Old 02-02-2012, 05:34 PM   #77
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Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

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Originally Posted by K3ym4k3r View Post
I call and then sit and wait for them to table their hand. If they do not get the hint after 30seconds I just tell them, "I called table your hand or muck please."

You remain polite and he looks like the bad guy. Win/win
No, you both look like d-bags intentionally slowing down the game.

This is not a game you need to 'win' in pretty much any case. Just table the hand and move on.....
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Old 02-02-2012, 06:51 PM   #78
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Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

I always table my hand straight away, whether I am the raiser or the caller. I'll even do this if either of us are all-in prior to the river.

If I believe the villain is playing these stupid games (and admittedly I'm only playing $2/$3 or $2/$5) I'll make a point of saying to the table that I hate all these elongated funeral services for hands and I believe in just tabling your hands immediately and letting the game move on. In fact, I consider it my duty to try and convince the players at my local B&M that turning your cards over when there is a showdown, no matter who you are, is good for the game and all players at the table.

In terms of gaining info, I re-iterate the point that I'm playing $2/$3 and $2/$5. If there are players at the table that are gaining sufficient info from this play that they will amend their future play against me (e.g. because I bet a flush draw on the flop putting a shortstack all-in), then they are at the wrong table, on the wrong day in the wrong city. They should be playing higher stakes in LV or something, not donking around for a couple of dollars with the weekend drunks at low stakes.

And I can offset this perceived 'downside' with the upside of this action being that it keeps fish and noobs happy with the speed of play and the friendliness at the table.

Please, please, everyone, just show your ****ing cards and move on with the game.
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Old 02-02-2012, 07:01 PM   #79
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Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

There's really nothing you can do about it, you can't control these pricks. Just show your hand immediately and move on.

But if it means so much to you, then say something like, "You're not showing, that's a fold." Say it over and over again, and say it quickly, like after they wait 1 or 2 seconds. Works for me anyway, it annoys them to no end and they'll begrudgingly show faster. Few things piss off anglers more than getting angled back
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Old 02-03-2012, 09:29 AM   #80
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Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

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Originally Posted by lawdude View Post
When I call, I usually do it this way.

"I call, I have a pair of jacks" and flip over my hand.

Works wonders.
That's about how I do it. Call, announce, and immediate flip. Even the most hardened of people-who-don't-like-to-show usually avoid slowrolling. I dunno...maybe I'm giving up information that way, but if I've made it to showdown, I want the pot, and I can't get it without tabling my hand, so I figure that I shouldn't dawdle.
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Old 02-03-2012, 01:04 PM   #81
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Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

I may seem like a douche for how I handle the situation, but its how I handle the situation.

If I call, I will just sit there until they say something about their hand or they show. If they say "You're good", Ill say what I have "Two Pair?", and if they still say I'm good I show. If they ask what I have I just say I called, you show. They will then usually say what they have or if I'm good. I NEVER table my hand before they do or unless they say I'm good and I tell them what I have. I paid for that information and that position, I'm not going to just table to them.

If I raise on the river and someone calls, I will instantly show my hand on most occasions, or just state what I have if its a reg. They usually respect me enough that if they have me beat they will table, then I muck.
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Old 02-03-2012, 02:55 PM   #82
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Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

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Originally Posted by Ben Rob View Post
I may seem like a douche for how I handle the situation, but its how I handle the situation.

If I call, I will just sit there until they say something about their hand or they show. If they say "You're good", Ill say what I have "Two Pair?", and if they still say I'm good I show. If they ask what I have I just say I called, you show. They will then usually say what they have or if I'm good. I NEVER table my hand before they do or unless they say I'm good and I tell them what I have. I paid for that information and that position, I'm not going to just table to them.

If I raise on the river and someone calls, I will instantly show my hand on most occasions, or just state what I have if its a reg. They usually respect me enough that if they have me beat they will table, then I muck.
And when he lies and says "pair of ducks" when he was bluffing and you show your hand and collect the pot? What information did you gain there?

None.

So why bother with the 20 seconds of 'communication' back and forth?
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Old 02-03-2012, 03:38 PM   #83
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Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

rapini

i dont play these bs level games, but played a long time in ac

you will encounter this situation many times over in ac bec of the type of players in this area

if i call and the player hesistates or doesnt show immediately, i just simply wait and never make any type of comment to the player

99/100 times you will win when you encounter this situation anyway

and at this level its a rake game and you arent paying time for the player to delay and stall game
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Old 02-03-2012, 04:09 PM   #84
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Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

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Originally Posted by Ben Rob View Post
I may seem like a douche for how I handle the situation, but its how I handle the situation.

If I call, I will just sit there until they say something about their hand or they show. If they say "You're good", Ill say what I have "Two Pair?", and if they still say I'm good I show. If they ask what I have I just say I called, you show. They will then usually say what they have or if I'm good. I NEVER table my hand before they do or unless they say I'm good and I tell them what I have. I paid for that information and that position, I'm not going to just table to them.

If I raise on the river and someone calls, I will instantly show my hand on most occasions, or just state what I have if its a reg. They usually respect me enough that if they have me beat they will table, then I muck.
it would be wonderful if you were to reread this thread and then reconsider your stance. Both sides on this "issue" think that what you are doing is wasting time. One side would you take the direct approach of saying to the villain, "show or muck." The other side, my side, believes that the villain has already given you good indication that he believes his hand is no good, so go ahead and show. Regardless, both sides would agree that your 'communication' is a waste of their time, and annoying.
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Old 02-03-2012, 05:07 PM   #85
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Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

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Originally Posted by zunni74 View Post
And when he lies and says "pair of ducks" when he was bluffing and you show your hand and collect the pot? What information did you gain there?
That your opponent is lying at showdown and you should make him table his hand in turn next time.
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Old 02-03-2012, 05:10 PM   #86
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Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

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Originally Posted by zunni74 View Post
And when he lies and says "pair of ducks" when he was bluffing and you show your hand and collect the pot? What information did you gain there?

None.

So why bother with the 20 seconds of 'communication' back and forth?
Quote:
Originally Posted by CardSharpCook View Post
it would be wonderful if you were to reread this thread and then reconsider your stance. Both sides on this "issue" think that what you are doing is wasting time. One side would you take the direct approach of saying to the villain, "show or muck." The other side, my side, believes that the villain has already given you good indication that he believes his hand is no good, so go ahead and show. Regardless, both sides would agree that your 'communication' is a waste of their time, and annoying.
By poker tradition this happens all the time, and it doesn't take 20 seconds.

Bet... i call... he says, "One pair". I show my two pair, TPTK, whatever; or i say "You're good," and hang onto my hand. He shows. Whole thing takes < 5 seconds because it's intuitive. It also depends on honor.

This whole thread exists because of those who transgress this. What's interesting, though, is that we play a game where lying in words and "lying" in deeds are both fine up to showdown, but then lying at showdown is out of bounds.
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Old 02-03-2012, 05:35 PM   #87
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Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

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Originally Posted by Rapini View Post
Obviously I'm probably making a bigger deal out of this than it is, but I find it simply unacceptable because:
it slows down the game,
annoys the dealers,
annoys the other players,
and I end up looking like a bad guy for wanting the game to be played properly when the two of us are just sitting there at the showdown without showing.
By calling for a floorperson every time someone is slow to show, you would be slowing down the game excessively.

This post from a similar thread sums it up pretty well:
Quote:
Originally Posted by lycosid View Post
If villain were a fish, you'd be a dick and would be losing money by forcing him to show.

A winning reg shouldn't have any problem with it, and villain here seems like kind of a d-bag for making a big deal out of it.
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Old 02-03-2012, 05:37 PM   #88
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Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

I'm guessing you play higher stakes than 2/5.

The bigger the blinds, the faster the showdown, and the more often the caller shows first.

Next time you find yourself on either side of a showdown staredown, consider that you're doing something to contribute. Emulate those playing higher stakes. Dress for the job you want, not the job you have.

Last edited by pfapfap; 02-03-2012 at 05:37 PM. Reason: holy necro bump!
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Old 02-03-2012, 06:37 PM   #89
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Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

The idea that immediately tabling your hand when you call actually speeds things up is pretty funny. The reality is: You call, you table your hand, and he hems and haws and flicks his cards while showing a bunch of people how he missed his eight-outer - or better yet, he slowrolls you. It takes just as long and you lose 0.0001% of equity in the future.

Just sit there, don't say anything, and make him follow the rules. Otherwise you are enabling him and others.
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Old 02-03-2012, 08:45 PM   #90
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Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

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The reality is: You call, you table your hand, and he hems and haws and flicks his cards while showing a bunch of people how he missed his eight-outer - or better yet, he slowrolls you. It takes just as long and you lose 0.0001% of equity in the future.
Selective memory. The other night my aces got beat by a two-outer. I'm just folding them next time.
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Old 02-03-2012, 09:11 PM   #91
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Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

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Originally Posted by Masquerade View Post
Absolutely wrong! Do NOT table your hand if you called their bet. You are making it easier psychologically for people to bluff you. I would just say "I call, what have you got?" to get them to show in a non-aggressive way.
I agree. The key is to not come off as aggressive. It's not a point of contention. Just say to the dealer in your best genuine question voice "since I called his bet, doesn't he have to show his cards first?" Or even ask the dealer, letting the dealer know you called his river bet, who is supposed to show first?

I hate it when dealers just say "OK, turn'em up". It's like there's protocol (action goes around the table in a certain order) up until showdown. At showdown the dealer doesn't seem to give a **** about protocol. I understand speeding up the game and stuff but how much do you expect that departure from protocol to speed up the game? Just do your job and do it right! I hate being aggravated - it throws me off my game. Protocol is protocol - deal with it! Don't make me guess how you're going to run your game!
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Old 02-03-2012, 09:44 PM   #92
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Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

"whatcha got, I called" is all I have to say.
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Old 02-04-2012, 06:40 AM   #93
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Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

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Originally Posted by kyleb View Post
The idea that immediately tabling your hand when you call actually speeds things up is pretty funny. The reality is: You call, you table your hand, and he hems and haws and flicks his cards while showing a bunch of people how he missed his eight-outer - or better yet, he slowrolls you. It takes just as long and you lose 0.0001% of equity in the future.
I promise you this is not true. Keep in mind you only see your tables, and your selective memory only stores the times that happened to you or otherwise annoyed you. You don't remember the times it goes quite smoothly, because they don't register any more than you remember breathing yesterday.

I see all the tables, all the hands. Tabling immediately at showdown speeds up the game tremendously. Please do it, every time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kyleb View Post
Just sit there, don't say anything, and make him follow the rules. Otherwise you are enabling him and others.
I'm okay enabling people who want to play poorly. I want them to stay that way.
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Old 02-04-2012, 03:30 PM   #94
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Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

Well, no, I am not going to table my hand out of order. Change the rules of the poker room if you want that to happen.

The same people who won't turn their hands up in order and bitch about their hands are the same that will stall when you turn your hand up out of order.

I turn my hand up for the idiot fish who don't know any better; I am friendly with them and I want them to remain my customer. I am not stupid, I know how the ecosystem works.

But I do not extend this courtesy to nitty regs who I don't want in the game anyway. This group is the group that predominantly bets, gets called, then hems and haws. **** them. They aren't particularly good to win money from and they make the games worse. I am happy to see them go.
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Old 02-04-2012, 04:06 PM   #95
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Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

Such animosity towards others. This can't be good for your game.

Anyway, to everybody else, the above is how you look when you refuse to just table your cards if you think you have a winner. The rules even say that if you feel like you have a winner, table it immediately reardless of betting order.

Choosing to be a jerk to the old guys who are jerks is how you eventually become that old jerk.
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Old 02-04-2012, 04:09 PM   #96
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Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

Yes, I admitted that I say all of those things. Especially "how can you call with that." I love saying that at the table at least three times per hour.

Or maybe I'm the only one who cares about the rules.



For the fish who donate money, I am cordial to them and will table my hand out of order. For the nits who make the game worse (e.g. the guy Rapini is talking about), they can rage on, get mad, and leave the game. That only reflects poorly on them, not me.

I also find it hard to believe that I'm keeping my emotions close to the surface when this is the exchange:

Bettor: "Ah I missed."
Me: "..." (looking down at concealed cards)
Bettor: "Stupid flush draw."
Me: "..."
Bettor: *flicks cards*
Dealer: Show your hand please, Bettor.
Bettor: *hems and haws*
Bettor: *exposes hand*
Me: *exposes hand in 10ms after seeing Bettor exposes his hand, loses to a slowroll, says nothing*

Not a lot of emotion there.
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Old 02-04-2012, 05:08 PM   #97
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Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

To others, I ninja edited a long post, so Kyle was responding to that. I felt it was inappropriate, which is why I edited it out. Too late, it seems.

You're right, I don't know your specifics. I just know trends that I see all day every day. I RARELY see the kind of slow roll you describe. But I often see showdown greatly accelerated by somebody - ANYBODY - tabling cards.

It's in the rules that if you feel you have a winner, you should table it, regardless of betting order. It's right there.
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Old 02-05-2012, 03:29 PM   #98
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Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rapini View Post
Obviously I'm probably making a bigger deal out of this than it is, but I find it simply unacceptable because:
  • it slows down the game,
  • annoys the dealers,
  • annoys the other players,
  • and I end up looking like a bad guy for wanting the game to be played properly when the two of us are just sitting there at the showdown without showing.

I find YOUR position unacceptable, becuase it is YOU who are doing all of this. YOU are slowing down the game, YOU are annoying the dealer, and YOU are annoying the players.

What you are doing is slowrolling. If you called, you generally think you won, which means you should just table your damn hand.

I mean, im sure it will completely change the game when you find out that the opponent went all in because he rivered 2 pair on a x5678 board with 58, but consider how much time YOU are wasting taking more money from these players. Are the chips not enough for you?

I fully expect the players of 2+2 to end this nonsense of taking forever to table their hand. what you and your opponent are doing is quite literally my least favorite thing about poker
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Old 02-05-2012, 04:08 PM   #99
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Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

When I call and the bettor says "ur good" I leave my cards face down and say "then muck ur cards" at which point I scoop pot and muck mine as well. I don't have to show if they won't.
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Old 02-05-2012, 04:58 PM   #100
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Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

Id try not to sweat it. remember these guys are often recreational and they have pride, adrenaline, and ego's. A bit and back and forth at show down is all part of it.

Asses each situation as it comes. Sometimes its best just to flip em over sometimes its better to wait and insist you see there cards. I suggest if you want to see there holding often times its just best to sit there and not move or say a thing.

Never get emotional about these kind of things !!

I embrace show down hesitation. I have become almost immune to slow rolls (Though not completely you understand) If I see a recreational player slow roll someone I find it hilarious I laugh out load cus its funny ! (It really is when you look at it.) thats the kind of stuff these guys should be encouraged to do ! along with showing bluffs and being egotistical. as long as you can separate yourself from the emotion and make correct decisions in spite of all this "I have something to prove" mentality then thats all that matters IMO.
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