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Old 01-16-2008, 09:32 PM   #26
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Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

After 3 pages.... This is never an issue when there is a strong dealer at the table and definitely not something to lose sleep over...
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Old 01-16-2008, 11:11 PM   #27
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Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

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Originally Posted by Masquerade View Post
Absolutely wrong! Do NOT table your hand if you called their bet. You are making it easier psychologically for people to bluff you.
I'm having a difficult time making any sense of this whatsoever. My head asplode.

Care to explain?
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Old 01-16-2008, 11:41 PM   #28
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Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

If it goes past 10 seconds I tell the dealer that I insist on seeing both hands and then repeat it so he knows I will cause a scene if he does not show both hands.
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Old 01-17-2008, 01:03 AM   #29
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Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

Yeah this is easy.
Etiquette: He says "I have nothing", you show, he mucks. He returns the favor when the spot is reversed.
Then if/when he breaks etiquette, you change it up. Now you say "show or muck" and wait until he does one or the other.

abc.
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Old 01-17-2008, 01:41 AM   #30
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Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

I don't want to make these guys show.
If you make him show it just pisses them off and makes them play better and tighter against you.
I want these guys betting some hopeless bluff on the river.

Besides, the vast majority of the time it is meaningless knowledge you gain - you call with A9o on a AKJ32 board and he mucks - what does it really matter whether he had A5 or two spades or whatever at some random 3-6 game. I would argue that whatever minimally useful knowledge you gain is overshadowed by the amount you lose now that you have shamed the guy into playing better hands against you.
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Old 01-17-2008, 01:49 AM   #31
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Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

Quote:
Do NOT table your hand if you called their bet. You are making it easier psychologically for people to bluff you.
Bull. Highly doubtful these players are that sophisticated to make even an easy adjustment. General, casual poker isn't as cutthroat and epic as many seem to want to think it is.

Pfapfap is dead on. It's on the OP to make sure he controls his own emotions.

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Old 01-17-2008, 01:51 AM   #32
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Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

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Originally Posted by psandman View Post
My approach is to simply turn up my cards. I really don't care if they what I had, and I especially hope that I never find out what they had.
Sometimes, albeit rarely, they'll actually fold a better hand.

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Old 01-17-2008, 04:54 AM   #33
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Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

I like psandman, Bernie, etc's way. Keep the Fish happy. Keep the table happy. Make them happy to lose money to YOU.

Best of Luck

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Old 01-17-2008, 06:17 AM   #34
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Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

I just call and don't say anything or do anything until they expose their cards.
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Old 01-17-2008, 01:21 PM   #35
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Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

Thanks so much for all your helpful responses. I'll summarize a bit below. Please do not feel slighted if I don't mention your comment explicitly; I have read all the comments and considered each one carefully.

A general consensus can be found among the extremely varied posts. That consensus is that the floor need not be called in this situation: the dealers know the rules and it is in their best interests to enforce them to keep the game moving.

Additionally, it appears that a majority of the players would vary their approach based on the type of player you're dealing with. If the "villain" is clearly a tourist who just doesn't know the rules or likes to riverbluff a ton, I simply will show my hand and allow said tourist to muck his/her hand quietly or show me his/her lucky winner after I show.

If the villain is a "savvy" angle shooter or otherwise an a$$hole, I will state "I called you," and look to the dealer (literally and figuratively) to enforce the rule. If a couple seconds pass, I will state, "You have been called. Show or muck." At that point, the dealer will enforce the rule against the angle shooter.

By varying my approach against various players, I manage to keep the fish happy by not antagonizing them needlessly, but I also send a message to the real jerks that I'm not going to tolerate any silliness from them.

Special recognition for the suggestion of stating, "Your sister likes to show me what she's got, so why don't you?" Just FYI, chances are that at 2:00a in the Borgata that comment would spark a 20-person brawl in a matter of forty-five seconds. The reason it would take so long to ignite the fire is that is how long it would take the drunk greaseball that just came in from the club to show the world he's a poker god to figure out the "hidden" meaning of what I said to him. So while it is an A+ suggestion, I'm going to refrain from using it while in the Dirty Jerz.

Thanks again for all your helpful thoughts.
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Old 01-17-2008, 01:37 PM   #36
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Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

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Originally Posted by pfapfap View Post
One more thing, just general showdown tip...

State your hand. Either your hole cards, or, better, how they relate to the board. "I have a straight." or whatever. Even if you're the caller. This speeds things up tremendously.

Once again, to those who are so hung up on the "proper" order... YOU are the person holding up the game. It takes two to tango. The other person may also be holding it up, but by playing that "no YOU show first" game, you're culpable. Table your hand, then it's ALL on the other person.


I really disagree pfap. When I bluff and am called, I immedietly turn my hand over, or throw it into the muck. I expect others to do the same.

When I call lots of dollars because I think a guy is bluffing, I don't want to turn over my two pair and have him say, "ohhh, two pair, thats good", and then I have no idea if he was bluffing, or if he just thought his top pair was the nuts. I'm not just trying to win pots, I'm trying to figure out my opponent so I can win future pots.
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Old 01-17-2008, 02:11 PM   #37
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Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

Fair enough, Taso, and perhaps it's a leak in my NL game that I treat showdown like small stakes LHE. I was talking more about the 2/4 and 3/6 LHE games the OP mentioned, where it matters much less. And in fact just yesterday I found myself waiting because I called extremely thin (turned out to be good, yay me), but the bettor didn't hold it up either. I still think in the long run in a vast majority of cases it doesn't matter much, but I also admit I don't observe as much as I should.

PwnShortStacks, I'm going to advise against making exception for the jerks. You really want them to know that their antics are working on you? Then they'll just step it up. If that's what you want, then okay, sure. I find the jerks are easier to figure out and manipulate if they don't have me in their sights. I accomplish this by ignoring them. Avoid the confrontation altogether and save your brainpower for the game at hand. If you're truly curious, you could try invoking "I Want To See That Hand". Warning, though, that many others will think you're a douche, but if you restrict it to the occasional hand with the table a-hole, they'll probably overlook it.
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Old 01-17-2008, 02:14 PM   #38
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Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

And another thing!

Regarding stalling so that the dealer will take care of it. Dealers have no more magical powers over the resident a-holes than you do. In some rooms, dealers have even less power, as they're not allowed to confront or do anything that might further antagonize a regular, no matter how obnoxious he is. But a dealer certainly can't grab someone's cards and flip them over.

More often than not against the repeat offenders, I'd be saying, "turn over your hand please.. you're first.. show it or muck.. turn over your hand." and it'd go nowhere. It's even more ridiculous in a multi-way pot. You know what got things going? When someone would show cards. "Okay! Five-high is currently the best hand. Prove to me that it's not." And I'd start pretending to push the pot to whatever crap hand tabled first. That gets everyone showing down in a hurry.
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Old 01-17-2008, 02:29 PM   #39
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Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bdams19 View Post
"I called you"

every time. I'll wait all day if I have to.
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Old 01-17-2008, 02:33 PM   #40
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Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

say you do have the loser. Why would you want to show if you don't have to? I'm waiting every time.
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Old 01-18-2008, 07:08 PM   #41
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Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pfapfap View Post
If you really can't discern the villain's range of hands if it can't beat whatever you've tabled, then simply tell the dealer, "I want to see that hand."
I really hate to be an ass here, and hate to start up this argument, but repeat after me "the IWTSTH rule is there as a means to prevent collusion, not a way to satisfy your curiosity".
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Old 01-19-2008, 01:06 AM   #42
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Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pfapfap
If you really can't discern the villain's range of hands if it can't beat whatever you've tabled, then simply tell the dealer, "I want to see that hand."
Quote:
I really hate to be an ass here, and hate to start up this argument, but repeat after me "the IWTSTH rule is there as a means to prevent collusion, not a way to satisfy your curiosity".
The subject has already been beaten to death numerous times, but in this case pfapfap’s quote is perfectly legitimate taken in the context of the OP’s stated dilemma.
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Old 01-19-2008, 01:12 AM   #43
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Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

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Originally Posted by bdams19 View Post
"I called you"
^^^

Assertive but not rude. Implies, "Perhaps you are absent-minded or forgetful, not stubborn, so I'm reminding you that it's your turn."

If it's a big donor and I thought it would piss them off, I might show anyway. But I rarely need to do anything to protect the donors in $1-2 games.
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Old 01-19-2008, 01:15 AM   #44
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Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

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Originally Posted by kaf22 View Post
I really hate to be an ass here, and hate to start up this argument, but repeat after me "the IWTSTH rule is there as a means to prevent collusion, not a way to satisfy your curiosity".
You're not being an ass, but I think you're ignorantly trying to apply IWTSTH where it doesn't apply: http://poker.wikia.com/wiki/IWTSTH

That said, while it's not the conventional IWTSTH case, I really don't know the etiquette when the last aggressor opts to muck without making a claim at showdown.

Last edited by AKQJ10; 01-19-2008 at 01:23 AM.
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Old 01-19-2008, 01:18 AM   #45
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Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

I pretty much do the, "I called, whatcha got?" and if they indicate they where bluffing like so many people above has said, I'll flip my hand but not release my cards until the pot is pushed to me.

That being said, if I am playing Omaha and I can get ANYBODY to fold without showing their hand, I'm going to do it. In a game like that it is so very easy for somebody to have the winner and not know it, so if I can table and they will muck, that's awesome.
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Old 01-19-2008, 03:42 PM   #46
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Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

Quote:
I really hate to be an ass here, and hate to start up this argument, but repeat after me "the IWTSTH rule is there as a means to prevent collusion, not a way to satisfy your curiosity".
My thoughts on IWTSTH are in this thread:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...83084#poststop

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Old 01-19-2008, 04:57 PM   #47
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Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pfapfap View Post
And another thing!

Regarding stalling so that the dealer will take care of it. Dealers have no more magical powers over the resident a-holes than you do. In some rooms, dealers have even less power, as they're not allowed to confront or do anything that might further antagonize a regular, no matter how obnoxious he is. But a dealer certainly can't grab someone's cards and flip them over.

More often than not against the repeat offenders, I'd be saying, "turn over your hand please.. you're first.. show it or muck.. turn over your hand." and it'd go nowhere. It's even more ridiculous in a multi-way pot. You know what got things going? When someone would show cards. "Okay! Five-high is currently the best hand. Prove to me that it's not." And I'd start pretending to push the pot to whatever crap hand tabled first. That gets everyone showing down in a hurry.
I like what most of the Soaring Eagle dealers do: "First one to show me two cards wins"
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Old 01-20-2008, 01:23 AM   #48
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Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pfapfap View Post
One more thing, just general showdown tip...

State your hand. Either your hole cards, or, better, how they relate to the board. "I have a straight." or whatever.
How long you been dealing? You need help reading the hands?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pfapfap View Post
Regarding stalling so that the dealer will take care of it.
I'd be saying, "turn over your hand please.. you're first.. show it or muck.. turn over your hand." and it'd go nowhere.
No need to stall. The dealer should take care of it immediately.
And the dealer should NOT say "turn over your hand", one player to a hand please.

As soon as the action is finished on the river I say "who's got the winner".
If no one shows in 2 seconds I go to the bettor and say, "you've been called, show or muck".
If he doesn't act in 2 seconds I call the floor. (I've never had to call the floor on this).
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Old 01-20-2008, 11:16 PM   #49
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Talking Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

I am a bit sarcastic so I say stuff like this " Sir let me educate you, if someone calls you, you have to show your cards first, I understand if you don't know all the rules but that is one you need to learn to follow. Now show your cards J.O"
you better get ready to duck if they take a swing
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Old 01-21-2008, 02:58 PM   #50
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Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

I occasionally make the 3-hour drive to a B+M casino, specifically to avoid the crap that happens at my local home games such as in OP's scenario, string bets, table talk, one man to a hand, etc.

I expect the dealer to enforce these rules and keep the game moving.

I called the bet, the original bettor needs to show his hand or muck.
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