i've been going to ghetto hollywood park because it's closest and the games are incredible despite the smaller stakes, poor service, incompetent floor ppl, ghetto location, etc... anyways, yesterday, this israeli(?) mother-son duo (regulars, but i've never seen them before) was at the table... i had been playing w/ the mother for quite a while and the son sits in the game occasionally next to his mom, but keeps busting out due to atrocious play...

so finally here's this one hand when i had AK and i 3 bet the 2 callers ahead of me... the son (very timid, scared $$) 4 bets behind me and i knew i was in deep ****... he was very short and gets all in on the turn w/ AA and i ended up winning a measly sidepot...

i then had growing suspicion that the mother passed chips to her son AFTER he told her he had AA, but i only casually complain to the dealer because i'm not used to ppl openly cheating and i wasnt 100% sure, but as always, they do NOTHING...

2 hands later, i notice that the son's stack has substantially shrunk and others at the table complain that they're passing chips... now i'm irate and call the floor and the cameras but the incompetent floor is soooo slow to respond, the cheaters hastily cash out and run away...

of course i turn out to be right, and they probably stole about $200 from me from the sidepot that would've been much bigger... i'm livid and basically the casino says they cant (read: won't) do anything... would you swallow your pride and keep coming back because the games are basically free money??

I'd ask the floor if they got banned.

i would just cease to tip everyone there except the food service ppl.

I am pretty sure i would stop playing there.

why? your costing yourself money.

What do you want the poker room to do that they have not done?

agreed! this solution appeals to the cheap former-online player in me...

well, something, ANYTHING? i feel that i should get my $ back... the floor man did not bother talking to the fiends, let alone stopping them from running away as he took his sweet time to "check the camera"... now, i'm thinking i should've physically restrained them, but a couple bills aren't worth legal trouble or whatever... later, i'm blamed for speaking up too late and the casino couldn't do anything now that they had run away...

Well, see, that's exactly the problem. Speak up while the hand is in progress. Can't tell if you did or waited until it was over, but it sure appears you waited until the hand was over... that or these folks left the table while a hand was in progress.

Regardless, if a random player at a poker table says "they're cheating" and those players say "I don't have to sit here and listen to this" and head for the door... you REALLY think the casino should forcibly restrain them? And when it turns out you were wrong or the casino cannot provide proof?

The casino is in a difficult spot. They didn't cheat you. A couple players who came in cheated you. And when you pointed out the issue, the casino acted to try to come up with evidence--it takes a while for surveillance to do their thing. In the meantime, the perps fled.

If the casino wants to maintain good customer relations, they might offer to compensate you. But they are under no obligation. They did what they were supposed to do, far as I can tell. I would sure be slow to surround a couple players with security and hold them solely on the word of a couple poker players.

Yes, you got cheated. Yes, it sucks. Yes, you feel like SOMEONE out there owes you SOMETHING. And they do... the two cheats owe you. Unless the casino was somehow negligent, they do not.

i agree w/ u on some points, ie. i dont feel the casino should pay for the cheats, but i feel the casino is obligated to get the $ back for me from the cheats when they come back... the reason that i didnt make a scene right away was because i wasn't 100% sure... from fuzzy memory (he was 3 seats to my left), he had about $30 or so b4 he knew his cards and his mom might've slid him another $60 or so (which is how i came up w/ ~$200 for the side pot)... i have a general idea how short ppl are, but exactly how short, i have no idea...

the only reason i became certain they were passing chips later was because the son's now relevant stack had a huge chunk missing and another player then spoke up and said they saw the son slide chips just then...

the casino manager argued that "i was trying to see how the hand would play out, and that i couldn't have everything in my way (in that i get to TRY to win AND ask for $ back when i didn't), which wasn't true in my mind... truthfully, i really just wasn't sure and it theoretically really wouldn't make sense to "play and see" unless i had AA and AA only...

this is the dealers job to make sure the chips and pots are right. he is paid by the casino to protect you in the game. that is his job. not to just deliver the cards. but unfortunately that is what they do.
the casino is responsible for this action as it is the negligence of their employee.

but in the future when you are uncomforable with what is happening stop the action and call the floorman right then.

I don't think this is what you did here, but a common angle (that never works, but the people shooting it are new to casino poker and don't realize this) is to try to freeroll off of a mistake. An example I remember from years ago was this guy playing in the room for the first time. A player said "misdeal" and this player turned up his 44 in the hole playing stud. The dealer told the players to hold their cards and called me. It was not a misdeal and this player complained that he showed his hand. I explained to him that he has a responsibility to protect his hand and how he played it from this point on was up to him. After the hand I am called back to the table because this guy lost and and wanted money back. He left upset (he said if I didn't give him his money back he was leaving). I found out after the daeler was off the table that after I left the table the first time that he bragged that he would get his moeny back iof he lost the hand.

You have to speak up while the hand's in progress, it's simple as that.

As for Hollywood Park, it sucks.

just curious, what do you mean by "this"? r u inferring that i knowingly was trying to cheat the system? if so, that's fine, u r entitled to your interpretation... i'm here to solicit opinions based on my true feelings as explained... i've played upper middle limit for a long time, i'm the most obnoxious guy (to try to tilt ppl) at the table but i don't shoot angles and i don't cheat...

"I don't think this is what you did here, but a common angle (that never works, but the people shooting it are new to casino poker and don't realize this) is to try to freeroll off of a mistake."

like i said, i just wasn't sure because at most the mom slid over 10-15 chips so i didn't make a scene immediately... the guy was 3 seats to my left... i only casually gauge tells to my left in marginal situations (like i'm hoping pot doesn't get reraised), but AKs wasn't marginal so i just acted based on previous action and my hand...

yah, hp is HORRIBLE but the game is too damn good...

Perhaps you're overly sensitive about this or something, but it is quite clear to me that RR is saying that he DOESN'T think you're angling. He's trying to get you to look at it from the floor's perspective. You need to speak up during the hand, not wait until after you lose. Once you throw the money in there, you're agreeing everything is ok.

Also, when I am playing BJ and I run out of money just before a double-down, the casino lets my friend pass me some chips so I can still do the full double-down. It's possible they are not "cheating", but rather think that they are allowed to do this. Be careful when you throw that word around. Most people don't like to be called cheaters.

First of all using BJ as an example here just does not work. Relative chips stacks at BJ make no differnce from one player to the other as they are playing the house and not eachother. Of course the casino wont care if your friend gives you money at a BJ table. Ignorance of the rules is NEVER an excuse on somthing like this.

The point of taking action During the hand is a huge one as it eliminates any possibility of you angle shooting for more money in the pot. Also the floor can freeze the hand and then go look at the cameras for a more accurate account of what happened and if they chose to leave during that time they would forefit the pot.

Do your self a favor and just take this as a lessoned learned of when to speak up when somthing like this happens. Always speak up when you first notice it and never wait as it comprimises the integrity of the game.

Using BJ is a very good example. A lot of people that play poker don't understand about stack sizes and such. Usually it just takes the table paying attention and telling them that is against the rules.

While it appears you weren't doing this intentionally.....you were in fact doing it.

What i mean by that is that if you had won the hand you weren't going to call over the floor and demand that you give back the money that you won.

So by not saying anything until after the hand is decided and then demanding that the bet not stand you are freerolling.

to the OP...
deal with the loss you took, its your fault you got ripped. you should keep eye on all players stacks at the table so you know whats up when you get in a hand. if its really that big of an ATM location, stay and play. i would add that if you see the cheaters in that place ever again, call them out big time. id go right up to the table and tell players to watch out for their 'special move'.
really what else can you do, that keeps the money coming in and makes you feel a little better at the end of the day.

I've had floor shift managers watch me pull more money out of my pocket to cover a double down in blackjack (at the Palazzo in Vegas). So I don't think it's at all against the rules, and I doubt passing chips from person to person is either.

thast his point. People inexperienced in poker don't realize they can't do this, because they are allowed to do it in the pit.

Ohhhh. I thought people meant that it wasn't allowed in BJ either, so they should know better. I get it now.

ok, i see what u mean here and why the hand would appear as freerolling to outsiders...

those ppl were intentionally cheating because they denied our accusations that they were cheating, then they fled while the floor checked the cameras...