OMG. After reading this thread I know why everyone is so nice to me at the local casino...

I wasn't playing regularly and didn't fully care about getting better until this summer. Also when you say "spend more time" you make it sound like bum hunting requires so much of my time and energy when it's effortless. I sit down, I size up the table and I decide where I want to sit. It's very simple. There's a very easy shortcut for me to boost my win rate. I'm not gonna pass when there's very little or no long term consequences for doing so in a place like Vegas.

Game selection is an important consideration but I think seat changing is blatantly predatory and often not even that beneficial. Most bad players seat/game change regularly so even if you land the best seat it probably won't stay that way for long. And if you constantly are trying to get position on someone they are going to figure it out.

While game selection is important, I think sitting in the best seat available in the best game when you show up and changing games every couple of hours or so if necessary is reasonable. Following one specific guy from game to game is obviously predatory and I would strongly disapprove of anyone doing this.

The other day there was a huge spot in my game waiting to get in a bigger mixed game. The games in the mix magically changed when the spot showed up so the table would be 9 handed instead of 6 handed. The intention was obviously to get the spot in the game as soon as possible. As this was going on he was explaining exactly what was happening to those of us at my table.

I feel like some pros just assume rec players are dumb because they're not good at poker. But anyone who's done well enough in life to consistently lose at poker, especially at bigger stakes, is probably not an idiot.

OK so if you want to do it , and you think it helps your game be more profitable, then just do it. There's no way that it won't be obvious to many folks , but so what? Poker players employ many different styles and methods that they think are positive for them. I simply don't see why anybody should care what you do, or why you should care what anybody here thinks about what you are doing. Next hand.

Tyty

OP, bump this thread in another year when you're hopefully a little more humbled and I'll write an essay on all of the seat changing tricks. There's quite a few of them.

This was more or less your response when I more or less posted the same thing to you on February 8, 2016.

At some point you're going to have to stop pretending all your mistakes were in the past.

I've been "called out" on it. I was seat changing for comfort reasons (1-3). In this case he was being paranoid (or just joking). Fish know when you're seat changing for position about as well as they "know" you are bluffing when they call it off with a pair of deuces.

Seat selection and table selection are skills. However, not being a dick so that people are willing to play with you is also a skill.

As for not being obvious about being a bum hunter, one can build a reputation as someone who changes seats often. If you also switch seats when doing so does not seem to provide an advantage and might even be marginally worse, then you look like a monkey angling for the lucky seat when you do make an advantageous seat change. You might even want to occasionally switch out of what a serial bum-hunter would consider the best seat at the table.

But if you are a bum hunter who is obviously moving around to get position on the fish, the regs talk about you when you are not at the table. As someone whose preferred seat is to the immediate right of the action player, I am happy to see someone decent move to the left of the fish and put himself in the worst possible seat relative to me.

You're absolutely right about that. And so is everyone else ITT that says fish aren't idiots. A lot of fish are aware that they're long term losing players but don't care cause they've got money to blow or just want to gamble. They're also aware that people playing tight aggressive are generally grinders or serious part time players who play to make money. I may be wrong, but I think as long as you're pleasant to be around at the table, they're not gonna hate you for being a bum hunter. Some care more than others so obviously gotta just go with your judgement. I've only gotten called out on it once in nearly 400 hours. And the guy didn't even seem to care that much.

You say only once were you called out. But I wonder what the ratio of knows v cares v bothers v says something are.

Anyone from the marketing or retail service worlds know what the assumed offended customer to one offended enough to complain generally is?

Also how many of those who said nothing to you, made comments after you or they left?

I hate to chime in as the classic self-centered **** that is "obviously" a shark (I am so deep down in online poker, a real fish on stars!), but I actually imitate fish-behavior live and have sharks positioning on me. They usually go nuts to get my action. And for that reason, I have an unbelievable winrate in live games. I absolutely milk the "sharks". For about a year I was known as the luckbox fish. Now I have to rotate between two casinos to get action. And I have to strategically dump a bit of my winnings before I leave the casino, so the "sharks" have a good last impression of me for next time. Luckily, whilst getting "bumhunted" by so-called "sharks" (and thereby earning my bread and butter), I have an awesome time. And after a while, the whole table is laughing at my foolish gimmicks when I keep getting "lucky". I have only had one bad experience where an old reg got mad. I knew he had pocket aces, kings, queens or maybe AK-suited, and we where both deep as hell. There where two other people in the pot. And I had been milking the old reg all night, but he had just one a large pot in a 4-way all in. So I tested my luck with J7, planning to put him all-in on trips or better, otherwise fold. I flopped a house and got all he had won (and he was breaking even). He freaked out and started screaming at my damn luck. Sure, I was lucky. He would have gotten the pot as it was pre-all-in if I had missed.

What he will never realize is that I am always probing him and tricking him, so in his world, I am always lucky. He never realizes that 9 out of 10 times, I donate a little bit - call a bet too much - but then get it all back and some extra when he is blinded by greed. Anyways, the nice fish at the table defended me, telling the "shark" that I was just doing what they had all come to do, i.e. winning some money. And the shark left. The rest of the night was awesome.

Since I had won a bit too much (being lucky on top of it all), we ended the session with a deal: No matter what I got, I would call an all-in for two dealings in a row, if the max amount was what was at the table (I covered them both 10:1) or a similar buy-in I pulled a runner-runner. It ended horribly. The poor dude got AA, and I got J4. He wanted me to get a run-it-2. First try I got a Jack high straight, second I got 4 of a kind. But I paid the cash back afterwards and gave a little extra to both so they could enjoy themselves after I left. The ******* shark never gives me action anymore, whilst I have developed an actual friendship with the fishes. In case the fishes were *******s as the shark, I would find another place to play. And the fishes wouldn't enjoy getting stacked by the shark, and the shark would (as is the case) be miserable.

Anyways, two points to note in my ramblings:

1) You can make a fortune out of position, especially against overly eager dudes that try to pull a trick on you.
2) Protect the goodspirited nature of a friendly cashgame.

It makes your time spend more valuable. Maybe it costs you some percentage, but... who wouldn't pay 50 bucks for a nice evening, rather than saving the 50bucks to have a ****ty one? Or, equivalently, who would rather earn 50bucks extra and feel like **** for an entire night, rather than earning 50 bucks less and having a blast?

Oh, also: The kind of fish you want position on. You get position on that fish. Just iso. It works, unless the people between you and the fish are all the same type of fish as the fish... but then why switch? You have a complete circle of fish, then. Also, your AA will get sucked, because you play the deck. Hence you must play random hands. Hence you play like the fish until the flop. So, like... I don't see the reason to switch seats. Also, if you need to switch seats, there is no plenum of fish, hence you can't be a nit, or else ISO would work and moving would be a waste. Hence you plan to loosen up. And then maybe the fish is like me, and by moving, you took the bait, hook and sinker, since sharks are fish, and some sharks eat sharks, haha.

Aaaand I never switch seats. I just pick my spots and target the fish. And usually the whole table knows, and we are all having a good time laughing about the situation. Haven't played poker outside of my home country, but is it really the case that the US poker culture sucks so much compared to European? Or am I just lucky to have a friendly venue? Honest question. I get a weird feeling when I read these threads, because I seriously don't recognize the type of mentality from my own experience in live gaming.

Take care

^^ Is this a level? Or are you seriously suggesting playing random hands out of position v. regs is good advice?

Semi-grunching:

I don't think that you can avoid being obvious esp if you have to move multiple racks of chips which is a pita. Go on and say 'lucky seat', 'see the TV better', the player you're targeting isn't an idiot all of the time. That, and you should learn to be able to play from any position bec sometimes there won't be a huge donator to try to isolate.

Me? What I do is, I invest some loses to attract some kind of exploitative players. They then start going pretty crazy, opening up way too much. So I keep sticking out some bait once and a while, and the table goes in frenzy mode. And then I just stack them at the first and best opportunity. It works well, but, granted, against a geeky player it won't work. Live it does work, though. And it works on certain poker sites at certain stakes. But it fails hard on, say, pokerstars, since the average level of play is too high. In live poker, the sharks are often "sharks", especially if you go to more... let's say local joints. But yeah, it is a piece of advice. Try it out, it works wonders. Just remember common sense and don't overindulge. The line between hustling and donking is razor thin.

Edit: I tried it at a larger casino, and it didn't work well, so I switched to more conventional play. So, to be clear, I don't suggest playing random hands against good players, I suggest faking that kind of stupidity in front of joint-relatively good players. There is a difference

Yeah, you've recommended a lot of weird stuff I'm pretty sure is bad in 99% of games. Like calling with J7 against a guy you put on {QQ+,AKs}. Playing random hands. Playing out of position. Especially playing random hands out of position. Going all-in blind, and then giving the money back when you win?

If this is working out for you then your opponents must be beyond terrible, or there is some weird table dynamic I'm not understanding, or you are running super hot live. I'm pretty sure if I tried anything you're suggesting I'd get destroyed.

But if it works for you that's good I guess.

I think Pret_Lisperoony should write a book or start a poker training website.

Maybe I should be more clear. In 400 hours of bum hunting, it's never caused an issue. I've never changed the mood of the table nor have I had a fish I'm bum hunting seat/table change to avoid getting bum hunted or tighten up to refuse to give me action.

If you've already got it down why'd you ask the question?

Cause someone necro posted or whatever the term is. The question was asked a year and a half ago and doesn't apply anymore because I'm currently in Vegas and the turnover here is huge. It still helps to know how to be as creatively low-key as possible.

Ah....I hadn't noticed. The term is 'bumped.'

But necroposting sounds way cooler...

Well i learnt something new today.

Edit: actually that is two if I count the autoblow 2.

As for the J7-thing, we where about 500bb deep, and there was a pretty deep callstation in the mix. I love when people are blinded by a big pocket, and I gladly call 7-8bb in case I stand to gain 8-990bb in case I hit a hand. My winrate is unreal, and I am not running as a god.

As for giving cash back. That evening I had been running like a god, on top of the usual. Normally I earn 1-2 buyins/h, this night I was up 35k and had bought in for 1k. And at least 10k came from one particular dude. So it felt competely fair to go in blind for two hands and give him a chance to win back 2k. Since I won the hand counter to the purpose, I gave back the last 2k + 1k. I think that is standard decency. I seriously can't see why anyone would see that as irrational, unless you are 100% selfish and robotic. I don't live in vegas, so the player pool is perhaps 50 people, with 15 being the usual suspects. You have to maintain a good atmosphere and contribute to fun nights if you want to get any action.

And as for my playing style. I pretend to be a donkey, and my opponents usually respond like you guys. If you lack basic strategic understanding, have a hard time gouging other peoples' mindset, risk aversion, likely holdings or handranges and so on, then stick to standard play. Or if your opponents don't get frisky and play exploitative styles, then stay away from it. But if they do - and most live players I have played do, or can be triggered to do it - then you can proactively ingeneer your games and cause wild splashing. I do that. And most people are arrogant. The thing is, most people are also easy to influence. That is a large part of my style. I quickly sense if a person is hard to influence, then I stick to basics. But the games I thrive in are the ones with people I influence. And I test for that. If a guy switches seats to gain position on me, it usually means jackpot. Don't see what's so incredible about that. And yes, my opponents probably suck. I am no poker genious. But, well, most people suck. Where I play, I just suck less.

If your "shark" opponents are paying off 500BB with one pair, they are beyond terrible. And that villain was good, right? Not the fish? I guess if where you play people are truly that bad, sure, call with J7 against {QQ+,AKs} when you're super deep. In normal games though that is suicide. I hope your J7 was at least suited. Otherwise you're just hoping to flop 2p+ and you might as well have 72o in that case.

I just have trouble believing you know what you're doing when you make comments like you should play random hands and can make a fortune going out of position against regs.

The purpose of playing poker is to win money. That's how most people see it anyway. Your philosophy is when you run good you should dump the money back to the rest of the table?? That's mighty altruistic of you, but I don't see how you can possibly maintain your "unbelievable winrate" when you agree to ridiculous propositions like going all-in blind, twice, which puts you at a huge disadvantage given your opponents are not blind, and not only that, but you give them back the money when you win. Plus extra!! Dude, it's no wonder the fish love you. You're like Santa Claus. LOL.

And what stakes are you playing that you were able to run up 35k in one night, yet your best "shark" opponents are so bad they will dump their 500BB (to 990 BB???) stacks to you with one pair? It sounds like you're playing 5/T from 1k buyin. Maybe 2/5. Depending what country you're in I don't know how that translates to USD. Regardless, running up 35BI in one night is insane. Like 5sigma level rungood. How many hours have you played? If it's not a ton, you should consider the possibility you are in fact on a ridiculous heater.

NM all of that. He says there's only a 50 person player pool. So it's either a rich person's private game or it's just hard to believe.