you're crazy if you think a lot of them aren't aware of this.sure dumb don't give a **** at all and some get offended by it.

it's not enough to have a whale in your game you have to sit to his direct left every single time to beat him? keep him happy and take his money with a smile on his face. if you need direct position every time to do that work on your game.

this

don't "bum hunt". Learn how to beat everyone, not just the worst fish in the room.

When you move up from 1/2, you're just going to look like a fish yourself if you keep trying to get on a weaker player's left.

I play 2/3, so I have literally never moved to get position on a fish. The line-up is bad and if there's no stand out fish, well wait an hour and one will come along. I sometimes move because I prefer seats 4/5/6 or I'm next to some fat bastard or whatever. Maybe people think I'm jockeying for a fish, I dunno. I either tell them it's because my seat is unlucky or if I'm running well I say it's because my eyesight is bad and I like to sit in front of the board.

There are sooo many different reasons to seat change. Sometimes the guy next to me smells disgusting, sometimes I am moving to get a better view of the table or more room, sometimes it's to sit next to a friend, and sometimes I want am moving for better position on certain players.

If the person on my right is someone I'm friendly with, I'll tell them I'm moving for position on the fish, otherwise if it's an end seat I say I wanted an end seat and I'm not lying, just hiding the other reason I'm moving there, or I just say nothing.

I don't need to spend any energy on seat selection to be a winning player, but if I can increase my win-rate from $40/h to $45/h with no negative repercussions I am going to do it. The fish do not know why you are seat changing because it could be for a huge number of reasons. Just because you're a fish and I moved to your left doesn't mean I was trying to get position on you. Maybe I was, but often I just wanted more personal space on an end seat or something.

It's different if multiple people are always fighting over the seat on their left. Obviously don't do that.

It's hugely important to seat select IMO. Having a whale in position on you cripples you so hard cause you're gonna be out of position so often. If you wanna tighten up in that spot then fine. But I'm switching seats as soon as possible so I can play poker.

I'd rather be known as a bum hunter and be 8 bb/hr than not bum hunt and be 4 bb/hr. I don't play poker to get invited to BBQs. I'm a grinder not a rec (not calling you a rec Avaritia). Because of that most of what I do is gonna be bad for the game. Talking strat on 2+2/skype, studying and just my existence is bad for the game. If every grinder sacrificed some EV for everyone's long term benefit, poker would be better overall. But that's not how poker works unfortunately. Grinders look out for themselves first and I'm not gonna be the grinder that puts everyone else's wants before mine.

All I can do is not do other things that are bad for the game like berating fish or talking strat at the table, as well as not being open to conversation or wearing headphones.

It helps that I'm in Vegas and people are always coming and going to the point where there are way more regs than reg fish. In a small local card room though, I'll admit it may be wiser to seat change less often.

Avaritia, I'm curious why bum hunting is a huge mental game leak.

Your arrogance and entitlememt (displayed more in the llsnl forum) are both very large leaks. These are not meant as attacks, its just advice from someone with much more experience than you and who has seen a thousand yous come and go.

Just this past weekend we had a 5 blind game going (because I and another pro are good at poker and attend bbqs and know how to get 5 blind games going) and this game was killed when 1 guy got up and 3 different "pros" started musical chairs.

The "vibe" of a good poker game is a very delicate thing. Its like when you are first courting a new girl, the slightest thing off can kill the vibe, and its over.

While these clowns argued over who got to move where whale #1 started racking up and just like that and it was over.

Im going to go out on a limb and say no one on this forum has ever gotten a 5 blind game going. It was certainly a first for me, though Ive gotten several 3 blind games going. I am able to do so bc i followed the advice of dgaf (well known poster in live msnl) and try to come out of my shell and be as genuine as possible and not predatory. It is very challenging for me, as I am a natural introvert, but I pick my spots wisely.

As for me being a recreational, I take that as a compliment. Maybe one day you too can enjoy high stakes poker without a care in the world, as I do now.

Avarita's last post is top notch but it didn't include a response to this:

A bad player doesn't need to know why, but he sure as hell notices when a seat opens and five people start brawling to take it. And then the next time he plays the same five guys are brawling over the exact same seat, it becomes a pattern.

At small stakes in Vegas, maybe you can count on a steady drip of tourists who drop $100 once and never again in their lives. But in any game that's worth bragging about, donators aren't total idiots and longevity of the game or your longevity in the game is about avoiding the appearance of unfairness.

It's hard to hide the fact that you play 10 hours a day and cash out double more often than you go cash out busto. If they feel that you won it fair and square, they see it as "your turn" to win and wait for "their turn." If they feel that you won it unfairly, then they will be out to "get" you. They will try harder when you're at the table, think more when they're in a hand against you, because you "owe" them.

*raises hand*

15/30 LHE with a $5 button blind, two regular blinds, mandatory straddle, and we did a round of double straddles.

sure if x amount of people were all saying "I want that seat!", then yes that's noticeable. Where I play if you want to change seats you ask the dealer for a seat change button so that when a seat opens (specifically left of the fish) a simple, non-verbal move is done. At this point the fish has no clue that the player is moving to attack them, but more so moving because a seat/the one they prefer has opened up.

don't sit there like a dog in heat waiting to get position on the "fish". I don't mean to break it to you but if people are doing that, then they're also a fish as well...

Nothing wrong with holding a seat change lammer but for me I would much rather have position on a good LAG than a bad fish any day.

completely agree!

Here's the problem. There are going to be guys that don't bumhunt and are 8/bb hour winners because they are extremely talented and work hard and then there are guys that can win 4 bb/hour and maybe creep up to 8/bb hour winners with the bum hunting and constant seat changing. Now all of the 4 bb winners think they are entitled to win as much as the other guys despite refusing to put in near the amount of work that is required to do so, and that entitlement leads to constantly seeking to increase their hourly through other means like this thread, and other equally stupid stuff

Get better instead. or else all the 8bb winners decide they want to be 12 bb winners and then its musical chairs everyday. if you get better than everyone you don't have to bumhunt.

I'm gonna be straight up here. As a grinder who wants to grow my bankroll so I can stay at 2/5 comfortably my needs and wants come before the needs and wants of the other grinders in the room. Poker is a selfish game. I don't think being selfish when it comes to poker makes me a dick. I don't think making a decision to disregard the longevity of the game to maximize my short term EV is one I should feel guilty about. It's everyone for themselves. This game might be unbeatable for most grinders in 10 or 15 years. Why should I sacrifice EV to extend that lifespan? Should I stop 3 betting other grinders cause it puts them in a tricky spot? It's the same logic. I'm there to make money and care about myself. I'm not gonna pretend I care about other grinders cause unless I personally know them I don't.

At the end of the day, even as a bum hunter I'm still way better for the longevity of the game than those headphone/hoodie/shades grinders that never talk unless it's strategy or to berate a fish.

You are the nut low. It seems you are kind of aware of it and proud of it for whatever reason so I won't try to convince you of it other wise. Hopefully someday you will wake up and be able to see the Forest for the trees before it completely burns down around you.

Ps: it's embarrassing you need to be this "cutthroat" to "build a bankroll for 2/5." Get slightly better at poker and maybe you will find out your bush league tactics aren't as necessary as you think.

Maintaining the game long term is in your best interest. I don't avoid seat changing so other people can make more money, I do it for myself.

and lol at all the people saying bad players don't notice. I'm not sure what stakes everyone is at, but nearly every bad midstakes player I play with knows exactly why people keep moving to their left. They often call people out on it too.

IME many midstakes fish (not all) are much smarter in many things than the pros/semipros, they just didn't have the time/exposure to learn fundamentals

nobody is asking you to sacrifice your EV for other grinders. I am simply asking you to not steal it from them. If you want to make more money than other people play better than them, don't resort to seat changing better than them.

Yep, nothing sillier or less self-aware than a smug low-end pro laughing at a fish for not having a balanced 3bet range or whatever, when said 'fish' is a middle-aged city professional who makes in a month what the pro makes in a year.

It's not about being proud. It's about being honest. I'm a 1/3 player taking shots at 2/5. People are playing 5/10 and 10/25 or higher on here. There's really not much to be proud of.

I asked a question a year and a half ago and people are giving me ***** for it so I'll just not beat around the bush. Maximizing my edge at your expense is part of poker. A lot of grinders think it but don't admit it. I'll admit it and if you want to flame, go right ahead. Wanna guess where I learned about the important of seat selection? Through studying, the thing people ITT are accusing me of being lazy and not doing.

Heh, i didnt realize the thread was old and bumped.

Look, the point is that thinking longterm still benefits self. Im not some poker philanthropist trying to help all grinders for the greater good lol. I want to make money. But its best made with honey.

I started playing at a new room a few months ago. Theres a huge whale that plays a few times a week. He took a liking to me for whatever reason (probably bc i dont blow him and instead treat him like a normal human) and he started chatting me up pretty regularly.

He comes in one night, Im on an awful table with a seat open on my right. He comes up to me and says "is this table any good?"

Now, i could have just said sure its alright and had a great next couple of hours with the god seat on someone indifferent to losing $2-3k.

A level 1 player would say "yea its pretty good"
Level 2 would say (jokingly) "it will be if you sit!"

Here was my answer:

"No, you want 4, thats looking to be a great line up. Im leaving soon or I'd hop on it"

Table looks at me with burning fury.

Next week i saw him and he had a sh*t eating grin and said he won $4k in that game and i should have stayed etc. etc.

This dude now, NO JOKE, bumhunts me. Bc he thinks im always on the best table (true). So i table select a good table, and the biggest whale in the room follows me, and makes it a batsh*t crazy table.

This isnt exactly about seat selection but theres a moral in there somewhere.

All the live mid/high crushers I know don't seat change aggressively if they do at all while many of the mediocre/poor regs are seat changing/bumhunting monsters.

Of course there are times when the mediocre regs get the best seat/game but there are also a bunch of times where we'll start a decent game the bumhunters can't/won't play and a big action player takes the last seat locking the bumhunters out.

Also if I walk into the casino and there's no game going many of the fun players know that I'm willing to start a game in most lineups and that I won't quit if the game gets short or somewhat bad. So I often get the chance to start games that the other regs may not. They also notice that I never follow them to the cage, that I always give notice when I'm planning on quitting short, that I rarely seat change to get position on them. All that stuff adds up and it only takes one or two payoffs be it starting a game you wouldn't have been able to start or the fun player staying a few hours longer because he enjoys gambling with you to make up for all the small immediate edges you give up.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

That's actually a great story.

It's very situation dependent. Back in early 2016 when I originally posted this thread I played in a smaller room where a lot of the fish were regs. In that spot it's kind of like the situation you're describing and I would've need to exercise judgement and pass up a few spots if I'm playing there multiple times a week. Luckily I'm in Vegas for another few weeks and it doesn't matter for now since most fish are tourists I'll never see again.

Have you ever considered that, if you were to spend more time learning how to work fish from OOP and having good players play on your left, that you might have moved up to 5/10 over the past year and a half?

This is the end of the story in the case where you're desperately trying to make rent money (or drug money) in a week.

One of the luxuries of being a non-pro or a pro with an adequate bankroll is that you can play to maximize your lifetime winnings. You don't have to worry about winning less (or even losing) this week, this month, or even this year. You can put yourself on a track to move up at least a level a year, and be crushing the best games (and 99% of the time that is the biggest game).

I've read the thread and have a beginner's question. I'm not very good, I play tight enough to hold my own. A normal session is once or twice a week for me and usually 8-10 hours each with me being up or down $150 either way.

I'm trying to be less of a nit, but still play pretty tight. If there is a very aggressive player to my immediate left and a seat opens up to his left should I not be asking for that seat?