Hi all,

This has never happened before ever to me and need advice on what i should have done.

Hero: I have KK and raise preflop V calls. flop is K J 2 i ask V how much he has left and he goes "I have this much left" grabs his whole stack and leaves in the middle of the pot. I instantly call and turn over KK.

As soon as he sees KK he goes I didn't say i was all in i said this is how much I have. Dealer says it's an all in since he does the forward motion and crosses the betting line.

V calls for floor and flooring agrees with the V bc he "verbally said" this is how much i have and put it in

I think this is a horrible ruling and tell the floor that it was awful

How should I have handled this? Obviously very pissed

"Are you betting that?"

You should have known that it was probable that he wasn't trying to bet.

But call quickly and roll over your KK so he will/might be forced to leave it in the pot.

How did the Floor react to you telling him he made an awful ruling?

First off, no matter what the ruling is or should be, don't do what you did if you want to maximize profits. At least confirm the all-in action with the dealer and/or villain before calling/flipping your cards over. This type of behavior might already be covered in the live poker FAQ or another FAQ but is an issue that can easily be avoided.

That being said, it would be helpful to know the positions, any actions (V check?) before this motion, but I'm going to assume the action was on you, since you are asking him the size of his stack. That, with the fact that he was trying to give you a better vision of his chipstack per your request, without the intent of betting, leads me to believe that the floor's ruling was reasonable at the very least. I don't think the floor's explanation was correct or sufficient, but from the information you provided, I would rule the same way.

The possibility of his action being an angle factored in this decision. If he checked and the action was on you, there really isn't a significant angle possibility from his motion. On the other hand, if he was first to act and hasn't acted yet prior to this motion, I will probably rule differently.

The floor is correct for 2 reasons.

1) Villain clearly said "this is how much I have" which doesnt sound like a bet to me
2) If he did bet, he bet out of turn. His bet is not binding unless you check first. Once you shove your chips in, the action has changed and he can change his action...by folding.

insta calling and turning over your hand was your first and hopefully last mistake. i always 100% confirm the villian action before i show hand or do an action myself. still never been accused of slowroll.

Welp, OP's never going to do that again. Hopefully the life-lesson didn't cost too much.

I could easily see the villain posting a thread here about how you tried to angle shoot him and got shut down by the floor. He was just pushing his chips out so you could see them and you tried to force him all in.

You were both careless and the floor happened to bail out the other guy instead of you.

Any time someone does something ambiguous make sure you get clarification before acting. "Is that an all in?" Definitely never turn over your hand or muck until you're quite certain the hand is over.

Sorry OP. Although I can give you the benefit of the doubt, I have to give V the same benefit and allow that V might have been simply putting the chips in view. When I win chips, no matter the amount, I want them honestly (i.e. V wanted to bet/call).

If action is on me, and V put his stack in the middle OOT, I'm getting clarification. Based on his reaction, I think he was willing to put in in, until he saw top set.

I hope you only learn this lesson once, and I hope it was a small stack that you didn't win.

This would be fine if it was his turn to act and nothing was said.

With what was said this clearly wasn't a bet. Why on earth you insta-tabling here unless your angling?

Are you friends with this dealer?

When I told the floor it was a horrible ruling she just said that's fine and walked away. Not friends with the dealer I think he was newer. But I was in position and villain had not checked or bet. The whole reason I snap called was Bc he slammed his chips down left them in the middle and it just so strongly seemed like a bet.

I mean I guess I can take this as a learning experience but anytime I see someone leave the chips in the middle I just assume it's binding. He didn't have to do that.

Why would you be asking how many chips he had left when the action wasn't on you?

But anyway, like others have said, I guess you should have protected yourself better, but if the action was on him, that should have been considered a bet.

I agree with chillrob. If the action was on the other player and he moved all his chips into the pot, this should be considered an all-in bet.

If the action is on you, it's getting murky and a lot depends on house rules. Some rooms will say his out of position action is not binding, but I am pretty sure other rooms will rule that as action offered and accepted in a heads-up pot.

Okay thank you guys!

So what would you guys do if you strongly disagree with a floor ruling? The whole table was like dude you need to talk to someone else about this you got screwed. I didnt know what to do after the ruling?

You can ask to have the shift manager come over, but in some rooms/cases that is not a possibility. There is generally nothing you can do beyond that immediately. All rooms have some version of the "decisions of the room management are final" rule.

After the fact, you can appeal to the gaming commission authority, but my fairly uninformed opinion is that this is has a low likelihood of even getting a personal response. I suppose it depends on the jurisdiction, some may be more inclined to treat reports from players with a high priority. It's also not clear what would happen even if they found in your favor. Finally, if you become a big enough problem, the room can bar you from ever coming back.

The best thing to learn from the experience is to protect yourself. Never be in a rush to bet or to turn over your hand, if any part of the action seems out of the ordinary. There are no special prizes for being the fastest player. Confirm the action first, when there is any reason to. No one else at the table or in your room has your interests at heart.

Technically if it was his turn and the betting line is enforced in the casino then the bet has to stand.

Regardless I am happy the floor ruled in his favor because what you did was a little rude at the very least. It is his turn to act and you can't give him a second to act before having to ask how much he has? And then when he shows you, which he wasn't required, you snap him off and instantly show your hand to make sure action cannot be restored?

Learn from this and please don't go up the ranks to correct this "mistake" because it doesn't do you any good.

In Bob Ciafionne's Poker Etiquette it clearly states that the House has the final say. Most house rules resemble this work. I get the inkling that you snapped called in the hopes that it would constitute a bet, and I also think it should have. I am not entirely shocked the floor did not agree and decide the other way.

You should simply ask the dealer, "Who's it on?" You do this, because if the dealer says it's on you, and that it's a bet (an all-in bet to be precise), the other player will be forced to be put into a position where he either objects to that or not, and he might not object to it because it'd show weakness.

Btw, lines on the felt do not necessarily mean anything, and it varies between room to room. Some say it's a "betting line", and others use the forward motion rules. You should assume the rule is forward motion until you learn that the house has a special "betting line" rule.

Did you claim the room has a forward motion rule AND a betting line in your OP? Was the action on you? Did he bet out of turn in response to your question about his stack size , OR was the action on him?

If the action was on him , and he Pushed his stack forward accross a betting line, then it is an AI shove. Your call and tabling is correct in that situation.. If this was the case , then I would check and see if the V and the floor leave together.

In my opinion it was a demonstrative bet because V thought that OP was needling. As soon as he saw the set, V weaselly backed off. Ruling could have gone either way, depending on interpretation. Myself, I think it was wrong. V did not have to put his stack in the middle to show how much he had. He was clearly irritated.

Exactly!!! He was so pissed anyways! And ended up leaving the whole stack in even tho he didn't have to and ended up rivering a flush lol

So the Floor ruled that Vs action was not a bet in your OP? So you got upset?
Then you say V left the bet in , despite the floor ruling that it was not a bet, the dealer alllowed it, and then won the pot?
Is that what you say happened? Maybe I am misreading your posts.

My bad! Yes floor rules that it was not a bet and v said "f it" I'll leave it in after I said it should be a bet and he rivered a flush so I lost anyways. But that's besides the point

OK , thanks, interesting hand. Slightly unstructured rulings and interactions between, players, dealer and floor on this one. Live poker can be annoying.

Yeah it was super weird! Very next hand I have KJ and raise and this dude is hiding his whole stack like leaning over it intentionally so I can't see it so I just rack up and leave after that hand is done so crazy

I can't fathom why you thought that was a bet.

You asked himhow much he had and he responded by putting it out where you could see WHILE ANNOUNCING THAT WAS WHAT HE WAS DOING.