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Old 05-16-2017, 12:45 PM   #1
Aurora Tom
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High hand promos

There was some discussion on other threads about the good and bad regarding High Hand Promos. Can anyone give any specific HH structures that have worked really well in your rooms? I'm thinking simple from the organizational standpoint but creative and different as well. Maybe taking several different profitable ideas into one.

Thanks!
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Old 05-16-2017, 01:36 PM   #2
iraisetoomuch
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Re: High hand promos

If your goal is to drive people in there consistently then high hand promos work out the best imo.

Splash pots have the same result.
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Old 05-17-2017, 08:31 AM   #3
DaveC95818
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Re: High hand promos

A simple, on the clock, high hand of the Hour, half-hour, etc., works best anywhere. I also like what some Florida rooms are doing that have Omaha and Hold'em running- to the river in Hold'em, or on the flop in Omaha- paying the same, seeing the same amount of cards.
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Old 05-17-2017, 08:44 AM   #4
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Re: High hand promos

A local room that's large and busy (52 tables total often 30+ jackpot games going even on week days) did a cool variation in 2016 when someone realized that 2016 is divisible by 2, 3 and 4 - they'd pay up to the top 4 high hands per hour. If there were only 2 or 3 qualifiers (Aces full min) they'd get a bigger piece.

In 2017 it became 2100 for the top 5.

This seemed to generate the most room buzz but you need a big active room for it.
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Old 05-17-2017, 12:43 PM   #5
Aurora Tom
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Re: High hand promos

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveC95818 View Post
A simple, on the clock, high hand of the Hour, half-hour, etc., works best anywhere. I also like what some Florida rooms are doing that have Omaha and Hold'em running- to the river in Hold'em, or on the flop in Omaha- paying the same, seeing the same amount of cards.
That's an interesting spin on Omaha. I was thinking of just a separate one with obviously a higher qualifier.
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Old 05-17-2017, 03:34 PM   #6
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Re: High hand promos

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That's an interesting spin on Omaha. I was thinking of just a separate one with obviously a higher qualifier.
I'm not sure that it evens the playing field between the games.

Typically High Hand promos require that a holdem player play both cards to qualify.

While allowing the omaha player only to use the flop, cuts down there advantage, because they have 4 cards in their hand they have 6 different possible 2 card combinations to play. but only 1 three card combination from the board.

Now the Holdem player only has one 2 card combination to play .... but he has 10 three card combinations from the board to play.

So if a holdem hand goes to the river a holdem play has 10 possible hands (that could qualify) while the omaha player only has 6.

Now granted when the holdem hand ends on the flop the holdem player only as 1 possible hand, and on the turn only 4. I don't really know how to quantify this but it seems unfair to the Omaha players (especially when we are talking about low limit games where going to the river is common)
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Old 05-17-2017, 04:08 PM   #7
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Re: High hand promos

It's better than not being included, which is the alternative.
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Old 05-17-2017, 05:16 PM   #8
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Re: High hand promos

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveC95818 View Post
A simple, on the clock, high hand of the Hour, half-hour, etc., works best anywhere. I also like what some Florida rooms are doing that have Omaha and Hold'em running- to the river in Hold'em, or on the flop in Omaha- paying the same, seeing the same amount of cards.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aurora Tom View Post
That's an interesting spin on Omaha. I was thinking of just a separate one with obviously a higher qualifier.
Quote:
Originally Posted by psandman View Post
I'm not sure that it evens the playing field between the games.

Typically High Hand promos require that a holdem player play both cards to qualify.

<snip>
That's not typical in Florida (or at least not in South Florida). None of the casinos I play in require two cards; in fact, one doesn't even require any, lol.
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Old 05-17-2017, 05:21 PM   #9
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Re: High hand promos

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Originally Posted by DC2LV View Post
That's not typical in Florida (or at least not in South Florida). None of the casinos I play in require two cards; in fact, one doesn't even require any, lol.
The Isle and Palm Beach Kennel Club both using require both cards.
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Old 05-17-2017, 05:24 PM   #10
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Re: High hand promos

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Originally Posted by DC2LV View Post
That's not typical in Florida (or at least not in South Florida). None of the casinos I play in require two cards; in fact, one doesn't even require any, lol.
Running Aces in Columbus, MN also does not require that both hole cards play.
Last time I was there, only the limit games were high hand eligible, and they would give $100 to the top X number of hands per hour, where X = number of limit games running.
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Old 05-17-2017, 05:37 PM   #11
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Re: High hand promos

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Originally Posted by Suit View Post
It's better than not being included, which is the alternative.
Well there are multiple alternatives. One is that they are not included and if promo is funded by a promo drop they contribute to the drop. Another is to find another promotion for the the Omaha games or have a separate promo (funded by a separate drop).
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Old 05-17-2017, 05:56 PM   #12
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Re: High hand promos

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Originally Posted by DC2LV View Post
That's not typical in Florida (or at least not in South Florida). None of the casinos I play in require two cards; in fact, one doesn't even require any, lol.
Well then if you don't have to play two cards in holdem its even worse for the omaha players.

on the river the holdem player has 21 combinations of a 5 card hand. One of those is the board so if 1 card has to play they have 20 combinations and the if none have to play they have 21.

but the Omaha player who can only qualify on the flop has 6 combinations. Unless ypu are going to let them make a high hand out of any combination of their hole cards and board cards (in which case they have 21 combinations .... but this presents a problem for the omaha player that the holdem player would not face...... the Omaha Player could make a high hand that is complete crap have to face the dilemma of having to call down with a hand he knows can't win for the chance to win the promo. (imagine the player dealt AAAA unless the current high hand is higher than AAAA the player may have to call all bets down to the river with a hand that is not likely to win the hand)
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Old 05-17-2017, 09:37 PM   #13
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Re: High hand promos

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Originally Posted by DC2LV View Post
That's not typical in Florida (or at least not in South Florida). None of the casinos I play in require two cards; in fact, one doesn't even require any, lol.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeStarr View Post
The Isle and Palm Beach Kennel Club both using require both cards.
Yes, I know there are a few in SoFLa that do, but that is not the typical practice at the majority of rooms down here.
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Old 05-17-2017, 11:33 PM   #14
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Re: High hand promos

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Originally Posted by psandman View Post
I'm not sure that it evens the playing field between the games.

Typically High Hand promos require that a holdem player play both cards to qualify.

While allowing the omaha player only to use the flop, cuts down there advantage, because they have 4 cards in their hand they have 6 different possible 2 card combinations to play. but only 1 three card combination from the board.

Now the Holdem player only has one 2 card combination to play .... but he has 10 three card combinations from the board to play.

So if a holdem hand goes to the river a holdem play has 10 possible hands (that could qualify) while the omaha player only has 6.

Now granted when the holdem hand ends on the flop the holdem player only as 1 possible hand, and on the turn only 4. I don't really know how to quantify this but it seems unfair to the Omaha players (especially when we are talking about low limit games where going to the river is common)
I've been told that the theory behind this is that the holdm em and omaha player both get 7 cards to make a hand.

There probably isn't a way to make this perfectly fair. It's probably better to have a system that is slightly unfair to omaha players than it is to have a system that is slightly unfair to holdem players.
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Old 05-18-2017, 01:09 PM   #15
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Re: High hand promos

A simple high hand every half hour with no qualifiers will end up sinking a lot of time into calling out, "new high hand, three threes, ace queen kicker."

Plus, having a qualifier will mean sometimes the jackpot rolls over. And that uncertainty is good.
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Old 05-18-2017, 01:19 PM   #16
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Re: High hand promos

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Originally Posted by BDHarrison View Post
I've been told that the theory behind this is that the holdm em and omaha player both get 7 cards to make a hand.

There probably isn't a way to make this perfectly fair. It's probably better to have a system that is slightly unfair to omaha players than it is to have a system that is slightly unfair to holdem players.
Unless you want to encourage people to play omaha...
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Old 05-18-2017, 03:08 PM   #17
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Re: High hand promos

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Originally Posted by DC2LV View Post
Yes, I know there are a few in SoFLa that do, but that is not the typical practice at the majority of rooms down here.
Central FL, Dayton/Melbourne don't require any hole cards to be used either... straight flush on board would qualify for any in the hand.
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Old 05-18-2017, 03:52 PM   #18
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Re: High hand promos

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Originally Posted by DaveC95818 View Post
A simple, on the clock, high hand of the Hour, half-hour, etc., works best anywhere. I also like what some Florida rooms are doing that have Omaha and Hold'em running- to the river in Hold'em, or on the flop in Omaha- paying the same, seeing the same amount of cards.
I'm not sure how you'd make it fair across Omaha and Hold'em games, but I know that the requirement that the hand play to the river in hold'em caused an uproar in one local room that had the promotion. Players felt that it forced the player with a potential high hand to slowplay it for fear of ending the hand too early. Players felt that it cost them money in the actual hand when they were up against a player with a good 2d-best hand who could have withstood some serious betting.

The river requirement also bugged players who had qualifying, but vulnerable hands. For example, a player holding 3 - 4 would not want to see any more cards on a 4 4 4 flop because of the likelihood that the player's kicker would no longer play if another card were dealt. These players wanted to be able to bet in a way that would end the hand before a higher kicker hit the board.

In any event, the most popular promotions near me are the ones that award serious cash (i.e., $250+) with payouts over short intervals (such as every 20-30 minutes). One room in Philly has a progressive high hand jackpot that runs simultaneously with the half-hourly promotion. The progressive works by giving a payout to the highest hand over 3-hour period. So, just to be clear, a hand wins the small payout every 30 minutes, and then the best hand over a 3-hour interval is paid an additional progressive jackpot over that interval.

On a Friday night at this room, the 30-minute payout is $500, and the best hand for the 8-11 pm interval is usually worth an additional $1,300+. Players love the promotion. The room is not only packed, but the games are especially juicy because the promotion draws a lot of recreational players.

Anything that adds casual players to the usual mix OMC-regs is good for the game IMHO.
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Old 05-18-2017, 05:03 PM   #19
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Re: High hand promos

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I'm not sure how you'd make it fair across Omaha and Hold'em games,
Its really simple ... have different promotions for different games.

Quote:
but I know that the requirement that the hand play to the river in hold'em caused an uproar in one local room that had the promotion. Players felt that it forced the player with a potential high hand to slowplay it for fear of ending the hand too early. Players felt that it cost them money in the actual hand when they were up against a player with a good 2d-best hand who could have withstood some serious betting.
That wasn't what he meant when he aid "To the River" what he meant was that in holdem players could qualify for the HH based on all the ards while in Omaha only a hand which was flopped would qualify.

I don;t like a rule that the hand has to go to showdown to qualify but if such a rule exists it works both ways .... they get a bit of protection when there opponent makes a high hand and is forced to slow play.

Quote:
The river requirement also bugged players who had qualifying, but vulnerable hands. For example, a player holding 3 - 4 would not want to see any more cards on a 4 4 4 flop because of the likelihood that the player's kicker would no longer play if another card were dealt. These players wanted to be able to bet in a way that would end the hand before a higher kicker hit the board.

In this cae I have little sympathy ....they are getting a choice and its a mathematical one .... they can make a decision based on what they stand to win by slowplaying and givng up the HH vs. betting the other player out to end the hand giving up any further money from betting .... its a strategy decision.

Quote:
Anything that adds casual players to the usual mix OMC-regs is good for the game IMHO.
but don't forget this money must come from somewhere and many fans of these promos simply don;t consider what effect they have on the games when they in the fund gathering stage as opposed to fund dispersing stage.
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Old 05-18-2017, 05:38 PM   #20
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Re: High hand promos

Why would you want to make a promotion fair across all games?

Omaha is slow as molasses and generates significantly less rake than a limit hold'em table. People who play 43s generate more rake than people who fold 43s.

Making both cards play is good policy for the BBJ (where if nobody hits, you keep the money). It's poor policy for HHJ since you pay out no matter what. The best policy here is to stipulate that you must scoop the pot to qualify, to prevent scenarios like 4444A on the board and everyone splitting the HHJ.

And the promotion should target the biggest increase in traffic, not the most popular times. Making a promotion active on Friday night (presumably the busiest night) is silly because most people who want to come in already come in. Likewise, making a promotion active at 9am on a Tuesday is silly because everybody who wants to come in already comes in. But a Thursday afternoon or Sunday night will yield the biggest difference btween plus and minus promo.
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Old 05-18-2017, 05:57 PM   #21
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Re: High hand promos

Some floor people are stupid, so keeping the same rules for BBJ and HHJ makes some sense.

A busy casino might want to run a Friday night promotion to maintain market share and ward off competition from smaller rooms nearby. I wonder how many tables break between the seniors heading to Denny's for the early bird menu and the night players coming in after dinner and if it makes sense to run a promotion to prop those games up in the late afternoon.
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Old 05-18-2017, 09:16 PM   #22
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Re: High hand promos

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Originally Posted by callipygian View Post
Why would you want to make a promotion fair across all games?

Omaha is slow as molasses and generates significantly less rake than a limit hold'em table. People who play 43s generate more rake than people who fold 43s.
If that is your concern why offer Omaha at all?

Quote:
Making both cards play is good policy for the BBJ (where if nobody hits, you keep the money). It's poor policy for HHJ since you pay out no matter what. The best policy here is to stipulate that you must scoop the pot to qualify, to prevent scenarios like 4444A on the board and everyone splitting the HHJ.
I don;t think making both cards play becomes bad policy just because you pay out no matter what. Since it applies to everyone its not somehow unfair. While its hharder for you to get a qualifying hand, it makes it harder for others to get a qualifying hand that beats you. And in some cases you aren;t paying out no matter what/you may be rolling money over to make a bigger HH payout. It creates less work for staff in a busy room running around confirming high hands. I don;t much care one way or the other but the HH promos I have seen here generally required 2 cards play.

Quote:
And the promotion should target the biggest increase in traffic, not the most popular times. Making a promotion active on Friday night (presumably the busiest night) is silly because most people who want to come in already come in. Likewise, making a promotion active at 9am on a Tuesday is silly because everybody who wants to come in already comes in. But a Thursday afternoon or Sunday night will yield the biggest difference btween plus and minus promo.
This is not necessarily true. If you have more room for more games on a Friday night adding more games on a Friday night is still a reasonable goal. And if you are competing with other poker rooms you may prefer to target the frday night business if you have the staff and capacity to increase your number of games.
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Old 05-18-2017, 09:45 PM   #23
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Re: High hand promos

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If that is your concern why offer Omaha at all?
There are some players who only play Omaha and refuse to play hold em, so maybe you want their business but you don't want to encourage hold em players to migrate over to their tables.
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Old 05-18-2017, 10:31 PM   #24
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Re: High hand promos

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There are some players who only play Omaha and refuse to play hold em, so maybe you want their business but you don't want to encourage hold em players to migrate over to their tables.
Exactly. An empty table and a bored dealer is the worst scenario, O8 is better than that. NL is better than O8 and LHE is better than NL.

Ideally (for the casino) every table is 6/12ish LHE (the massively multiway pots at lower stakes tends to slow the game).

As for promoing Friday night, sure, if you've got empty tables and bored dealers. But most rooms are at max capacity on Friday nights. And to subsidize promo hours, typically the people playing off-promo are putting into the system without withdrawing.
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Old 05-19-2017, 12:08 PM   #25
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Re: High hand promos

Another example why I hate high hand promos and allowing players to rebuy for less than the minimum buy-in: Wednesday night I played in Tunica at a table that had 4 players repeatedly rebuy for $40 = 13BB. One of them got T7s AI preflop and made a runner runner straight flush to win the promo. There was lots of preflop and flop action and I highly doubt he would have seen the turn card if he had at least the minimum buy-in of $100.

Things like that encourage players to buy-in as short as possible.
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