Hi Mr. Rick!

Thank you for your inputs!

Yeah, probably you are right in a way
Are there any books you would recommend that are suitable for my studies in the neccessary areas?

Please advise

Lol, I have the same problem when I play tournaments, especially in the early stages (I play almost exclusively cash games). They give you like 4-5 5k chips and the blinds will be like 50-100 and ill be sitting there with like 28k in chips but only like 8 actual chips and be thinking "whelp, looks like I'm committed".

Also... someone suggesting that the most important thing about live poker it physical tells is hilarious to me. It may be one of the biggest differences between live and online, but there are probably like 8-10 other concepts that are more important, some of which are FAR more important. Physical tells might be one of the least important concept that I can come up with.

Mr. Rick has given you great advice. PokerXanadu has given you advice. It's great if you can pick up on tells, but there is no way this is the most important live skill. There are players who have no tells. There are players who can give off false tells.
If you think being able to soul-read (and think your ability to have an accurate read on) a player is the most important skill you can have you are in for a bad time.

LOL!

Hi ThaNEWPr0fess0r!

Thanks for your inputs.

I see that you face the same issues as me! How did you overcome the situation yourself? And als, I agree with that there are 8-10 other concepts which are equally important. I mean, tells are great, but what if someone gives you false tells? Are you going to commit to folding just because someone gave off a "tell"? I suppose we also need to understand other concepts of poker.

eg. Hero is holding a boat, but V did something "weird' which is a supposed "tell", and with it, hero check/folds his boat, because he suspects v to be holding onto a 4 of a kind. Something like that. Prolly alittle exaggerated but you get me.

Hi Guito,

I agree that Mr. Rick has given great advice and PokerXanadu too, which is also invaluable.

And ya, I thought so too, there are definitely peeps who are better at not giving off tells or make obvious ones.

I forgot to add, I am interested in the thoery of being pot commited after betting more then 30% of your chips. Could you explain it further?

IMO, the players who say reading tells isn't the most important skill for live poker play don't have a good handle on reading tells. If they did, they would know how high it ranks in the skills.

There is no one who gives off no tells at all. Some are harder to read than others, but there are always tells.*

Some are able to give off false tells. If you are advanced enough in reading tells, you can detect the difference between a real tell and a false tell. Reading the false tell becomes just as reliable as reading the non-false tell.*

The reason I say it is the most important skill is because all the other skills are used to make correct decisions, and in live poker any decision you make can be superseded by detection of a tell. Effectively reading what your opponent thinks is the strength of their hand will influence every decision you make. You will know when to call, raise, fold or bluff despite any other action dictated by your other skills.

You can play technically perfect live poker and still consistently lose because:

1. You aren't reading others tells and thereby aren't making correct decisions; and

2. Other players are reading your tells along with others' and thereby you are losing more pots and winning less pots against more skilled players.

As a last note, in cash games you don't have to be able to accurately read every player at the table. All you need to do is read some of them and then beat those players. It isn't necessary to win pots against every other player (although there is no reason not to, if you can).

(*Just because you can't read some players or you can't tell the difference between a false tell and a real tell doesn't mean that it can't be done.)

When I start playing live I always felt short in tournaments where I was sittin with 5-10 chips of high value until I started to always think blinds. If you can process thinking "I have to call 25 blinds" you should be able to reason for the 'right' thing todo. Now I always break down to be able to shuffle so neither is a problem

Against most players, whether they are checking/calling or betting/raising is a much better indicator of hand strength than whether they shifted in their seat or touched their nose or whatever. It's also WAY easier to keep track of and requires less energy and focus.

As far as playing perfect poker and still losing... that has nothing to do with whether or not they player is reading tells and everything to do with variance.

This also reminds me that being able to spot a fish at the table is way more important than being able to spot tells.

I think Harrington's section on tells (in HOC vol 1 I think?) it pretty good. It points out that even if you have spotted a tell, you still have to know what to do with it/what it means. Just because a player likes his hand doesn't necessarily mean much. Are you going to fold AA on J93ss because the guy bet into you and exhibited a tell? Maybe he likes his JTo, or his Q7ss? Did you gain anything extra that the fact the he bet didn't already tell you?

Tells can be used as one of many tools in a poker players tool box to make the right decision. But to suggest that it is the most important skill, especially for a new player, is just plain wrong.

PS. Did i mention that spotting/deciphering tells requires a ridiculous amount of time and energy in addition to playing with the same players over a long period of time?

I just don't play many tournaments, hehe.

If you really know how to spot tells, when a player bets/raises you can tell whether or not it's because they have a strong hand, are bluffing, etc. That's the whole point of tells - to detect what their bets really mean.

You experience a lot less variance if you can read tells.

There are some instances where an ignorant player doesn't really understand their true hand strength, in which case the tells they give off don't quite match up. However, most players know the difference, so they may be happy they have top pair or a strong draw but are still afraid of better hands. They exhibit tells that you can read to determine their true hand strength.

He's not a new player. He's a new player to live poker. I assume he knows basics like hand selection, reading a board, etc. - that's just how to play poker. I stand by my advice - learning and applying reading tells is the most important skill for him to learn and apply for live poker. And I'm not saying that other skills are not needed or unimportant. I am saying that reading tells will determine how profitable he will be more than any of the others.

This one I just laughed at. I will have tells spotted on at least some players at a table of players I have never played with before within the first fifteen minutes. Give me an hour or two and I'll have at least some tells on all of them. It does indeed take a lot of study and practice to learn how to read tells expertly. In the long run, it's well worth it and will largely determine the success of a player. As far as I'm concerned, if the OP spent all his effort now into learning tells and quit trying to figure out how to win right now by handling his chips better, etc., he would become a profitable player much quicker.

The best books I have read regarding tournament play are by Jonathan Little. Secrets of Professional Tournament Poker. There are at least 3 books in the series.

For NL cash games I've got nothing.

If I bet 30% of my chips into a pot and I am called that will make the pot at least 90% of my original chip stack (if I made a pot sized bet which I rarely do) and 120%+ of my chip stack if I make a normal 1/2 pot sized bet. I will be left with 70% of my stack or a little more than half the new pot. My next bet will have to be for all of my chips anyway.

Unless I was bluffing and have no intention of putting any more money in the pot, I pretty much have to call a shove. I only have to be right about 1/3 of the time given the pot odds. And in general if there are more cards to come I may very well be getting the right odds to call anyway.

Similarly if I am calling a bet with >= 30% of my stack.

But instead of betting 30% of my stack, if I shove then I maximize my Fold Equity.

Also, if I am betting 30%+ of my stack instead of shoving I may be giving my opponents the proper implied odds to call their draws. And this is especially painful if I am forced to call their shove when a draw hits because I only have to be right such a small % of the time. Whereas it would be a mistake for them to call my shove.

This thread is a level IMO

Nah, it's your average opponent with a half-aware brain attached plus internet access.

Hey Mr. Rick!

Thanks for your inputs! Gonna digest them and see what I understand about it and will ask further questions if I need!

Always make it a two step thinking process:

1) Think in numerical amounts of money while determining your action

2) Announce the amount of your action and count out the chips to match the numerical amount.

Hi Queen of No!

Thanks that was helpful

This is just wrong. People are people, and many tells are universal. Poker keeps evolving, but allot of the tells Caro discussed 30 years ago with grainy B&W pics still apply. You can even see big name pros exhibiting them on TV. A furtive glance at their stack after a card falls or staring at the board can tell you allot about how a villain feels about his hand. You don't have to grope about for a hint about how someone eats their oreos.

Mr. Rick metioned books, Professional NLHE Vol 1 is pretty good for cash strat.

Hi Bull Horn!

Thanks for the advise I'll check it out too after I finish my current one