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Old 04-22-2010, 01:24 PM   #1
RadGrad2005
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Half Bet Rule in Limit

I've read Robert's Rules of Poker. A colleague and I disagree on when the half bet rule is applicable. The wording in RRoP is a little ambiguous. Answers to the following will end the debate. The questions may be basic, but I'd appreciate any help. Thank you.

10/20 limit hold em on the turn.

Scenario 1

Player A bets 20,
Player B goes all in for 25.
What are player C's options?

Scenario 2

Player A bets 20,
Player B goes all in for 35.
What are player C's options?
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Old 04-22-2010, 01:31 PM   #2
AKQJ10
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Re: Half Bet Rule in Limit

1: C may fold, call, or complete the bet to $40.

2: C may fold, call, or raise to $55.
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Old 04-22-2010, 01:46 PM   #3
Aj Brock
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Re: Half Bet Rule in Limit

1:C may fold, call, or raise to 45
2:C may fold, call, or raise to 55

The half bet limit rule only applies to reopening the betting.


Scenario 1:

A bets 20
B raises all in to 25
c calls then A can only call not reraise

Scenario 2:

A bets 20
B raises all in to 35
c calls
A can now reraise

That is what the half bet limit rule is used for
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Old 04-22-2010, 01:55 PM   #4
AKQJ10
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Re: Half Bet Rule in Limit

Quote:
Originally Posted by pokerroomdude View Post
1:C may fold, call, or raise to 45
Isn't it standard to only allow the next raiser to complete the bet (when the preceding bet was less than half)? Or do they just misapply this rule in the Tunica Horseshoe $4/8 game?
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Old 04-22-2010, 02:00 PM   #5
Rick Nebiolo
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Re: Half Bet Rule in Limit

Quote:
Originally Posted by pokerroomdude View Post
1:C may fold, call, or raise to 45
2:C may fold, call, or raise to 55

The half bet limit rule only applies to reopening the betting.
This isn't quite right. In limit bets less than half a full bet are "action only". If someone who hasn't acted on the previous full bet or raise has yet to act he raises to the normal 40 (or simply fold or call the "action only amount").

Quote:
Scenario 1:

A bets 20
B raises all in to 25
c calls then A can only call not reraise
This part is correct (except A can make an unlikely fold)

Quote:
Scenario 2:

A bets 20
B raises all in to 35
c calls
A can now reraise
This is also correct. B's raise is more than half so it reopens the betting for the initial raiser.

I had some other examples partially written but need to get ready for an appointment. Might try to post later.
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Old 04-22-2010, 02:20 PM   #6
Rick Nebiolo
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Re: Half Bet Rule in Limit

Quote:
Originally Posted by AKQJ10 View Post
Isn't it standard to only allow the next raiser to complete the bet (when the preceding bet was less than half)? Or do they just misapply this rule in the Tunica Horseshoe $4/8 game?
It's standard in LA and AFAIK in Las Vegas/Foxwoods. It's possible some rooms do it differently or a particular dealer/floor gets it wrong. Sort of forgivable in that it's one of the most poorly worded rules in poker.
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Old 04-22-2010, 02:54 PM   #7
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Re: Half Bet Rule in Limit

6/12 LHE game.

A bets the flop, gets called by B and then C goes all in for a total of $7 (call of A's bet of $6 plus $1). What are A's options?

At the time, A (me) was told I could only call. That seemed wrong.
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Old 04-22-2010, 03:07 PM   #8
AKQJ10
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Re: Half Bet Rule in Limit

That's correct. C didn't reopen the betting because he didn't "raise" in the reopening sense, i.e. > 1/2 the bet.

The idea is that it protects B because otherwise you're essentially raising yourself (with only a relatively insignificant $1 of action in between).
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Old 04-22-2010, 03:23 PM   #9
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Re: Half Bet Rule in Limit

Quote:
Originally Posted by David2+2 View Post
6/12 LHE game.

A bets the flop, gets called by B and then C goes all in for a total of $7 (call of A's bet of $6 plus $1). What are A's options?

At the time, A (me) was told I could only call. That seemed wrong.
you can fold. but no, you cannot raise anywhere the halfbet rule is in place.
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Old 04-22-2010, 03:49 PM   #10
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Re: Half Bet Rule in Limit

Quote:
Originally Posted by AKQJ10 View Post
1: C may fold, call, or complete the bet to $40.

2: C may fold, call, or raise to $55.
This is correct
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Old 04-22-2010, 04:33 PM   #11
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Re: Half Bet Rule in Limit

Quote:
Originally Posted by David2+2 View Post
6/12 LHE game.

A bets the flop, gets called by B and then C goes all in for a total of $7 (call of A's bet of $6 plus $1). What are A's options?
You can call the $1 or fold.
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Old 04-22-2010, 05:12 PM   #12
AKQJ10
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Re: Half Bet Rule in Limit

Good point, I didn't even think about the option of folding getting 37:1. I'm probably not trying hard enough to think of unlikely cases.
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Old 04-22-2010, 05:18 PM   #13
Elbow Jobertski
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Re: Half Bet Rule in Limit

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Nebiolo View Post
Sort of forgivable in that it's one of the most poorly worded rules in poker.
Really.

In my local room I kept getting this ruling from certain floor persons.

(2/4 game on the turn)

Player A bets $1 all in.
Player B then must either call $4 or raise to $8.

Yeah... B can't just call the $1.

I managed to disabuse some of the floor as to this, but I imagine it lives on as I don't play that game much anymore.
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Old 04-22-2010, 05:30 PM   #14
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Re: Half Bet Rule in Limit

Quote:
Originally Posted by lolmitHE View Post
you can fold. but no, you cannot raise anywhere the halfbet rule is in place.
Ok, that makes sense. What if it goes:

A bets $6, B raises to $12, C is all in for $13.

Can I make it $18?
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Old 04-22-2010, 05:36 PM   #15
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Re: Half Bet Rule in Limit

Quote:
Originally Posted by David2+2 View Post
Ok, that makes sense. What if it goes:

A bets $6, B raises to $12, C is all in for $13.

Can I make it $18?
Yup. Action was re-opened by B's full raise.
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Old 04-22-2010, 05:38 PM   #16
RadGrad2005
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Re: Half Bet Rule in Limit

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Nebiolo View Post
This isn't quite right. In limit bets less than half a full bet are "action only". If someone who hasn't acted on the previous full bet or raise has yet to act he raises to the normal 40 (or simply fold or call the "action only amount").
Rick, please clarify. In scenario 2 of the original post, are you saying player C (wishing to raise) must raise to the normal 40? Or to 55?
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Old 04-22-2010, 05:38 PM   #17
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Re: Half Bet Rule in Limit

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lattimer View Post
Yup. Action was re-opened by B's full raise.
Thanks, I don't think I have ever cared much about this rule and generally just shrug and do what they say I can do when I am playing live.
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Old 04-22-2010, 10:46 PM   #18
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Re: Half Bet Rule in Limit

Quote:
Originally Posted by RadGrad2005 View Post
Rick, please clarify. In scenario 2 of the original post, are you saying player C (wishing to raise) must raise to the normal 40? Or to 55?
From the OP:

Scenario 2

Player A bets 20,
Player B goes all in for 35.
What are player C's options?


Here B's allin raise to 35 counts as the first full raise. A re-raise would be 20 more to 55. In a multi-way pot (imagine at least a third active player not all-in) the betting would be capped at 75 (in LA with a three raise limit) or 95 (in Las Vegas with a four raise limit).

As an aside the capping rule is often screwed up in limit by dealers and to a lessor extent by floor (when backing up or over-rulling a call by a dealer). Essentially if three players are still active when the capping raise goes in (once again 3 raises in LA and 4 in Las Vegas) the betting is capped and can't be uncapped (even if the third player now folds). OTOH if the third player puts in a bet or two but folds before the capping raise is put in then the cap is lifted. The logic behind this is straight from Ciaffone's Card Player articles from about 1985 or so.
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Old 04-22-2010, 11:51 PM   #19
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Re: Half Bet Rule in Limit

Rick has covered this very well. I wouldn't change
anything he said.

I would add something that helped me understand this rule.

Action that is less than 1/2 of a full bet is NOT a BET. If it is not a BET it cannot be raised.

Action on a BET that is less than 1/2 of a full raise is NOT a RAISE and cannot be reraised.

If you have already acted, you can only raise a BET or a RAISE.

So just ask yourself, is that action a BET or a RAISE? If so, you can raise if the round is not capped.
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Old 04-23-2010, 09:12 PM   #20
Bryant The Tyrant
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Re: Half Bet Rule in Limit

what about completing the bet? where does that fall in?
20/40 game
Player 1 bets 20
Player 2 all in 28
Player 3 completes to 40
Player 4= i think i can raise?

from my understanding and based on the LA casinos, player 3 cannot raise the incomplete bet to 48, but can complete it to 40
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Old 04-23-2010, 09:17 PM   #21
Bryant The Tyrant
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Re: Half Bet Rule in Limit

Quote:
Originally Posted by pokerroomdude View Post
1:C may fold, call, or raise to 45
2:C may fold, call, or raise to 55

The half bet limit rule only applies to reopening the betting.


Scenario 1:

A bets 20
B raises all in to 25
c calls then A can only call not reraise

Scenario 2:

A bets 20
B raises all in to 35
c calls
A can now reraise

That is what the half bet limit rule is used for
i think this is wrong
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Old 04-23-2010, 09:57 PM   #22
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Re: Half Bet Rule in Limit

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant The Tyrant View Post
i think this is wrong
Read the rest of the thread and you will find the errors were addressed and corrected.
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