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Old 05-10-2017, 09:34 PM   #1
Shai Hulud
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Filming hands - is this allowed?

I've seen videos by Andrew Neeme and others where they are filming all the action at the table. I don't know if they're doing this openly or surreptitiously. I had assumed this was not allowed. If casinos don't allow cell phones at the table, it would seem to follow they would not allow more invasive devices such as cameras, yet I've seen a number of VLOGs with players seemingly openly filming their play. So...

A) Is it allowed to film hands?

B) If so, are there any exceptions or constraints I should be aware of?

C) Are these VLOG guys filming openly or surreptitiously? I find it hard to believe everyone at the table would generally be okay with a stranger openly filming them all night.

D) If open filming is allowed, do players have a right to object?

I'm not interested in uploading or sharing such videos (not at this time anyway). I just thought it would be very useful for studying and improving my play. Sure, one can take notes, but this takes attention away from the table, and even if it doesn't, the notes may leave out information, such as exact bet sizes, pot sizes, or possible tells from other players that would be much easier to spot in review. And I'd rather film surreptitiously than openly, just so I don't bother anyone.

I was thinking of just filming everything, noting the ending time for each hand I'm involved in, then editing out the other hands later for easy review.
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Old 05-10-2017, 11:17 PM   #2
albedoa
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Re: Filming hands - is this allowed?

Just a heads-up, casinos generally do allow cell phones at the table. I wanted to let you know before getting into your questions, as this may affect your preconceptions.

Use of your cell phone during a hand is a separate thing, and filming is another.
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Old 05-10-2017, 11:27 PM   #3
albedoa
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Re: Filming hands - is this allowed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shai Hulud View Post
A) Is it allowed to film hands?
Most likely not. These are private establishments, so barring any wiretapping or privacy laws, it is up to them. But the vast majority do not openly allow it. Punishments will range from nothing at all to a ban and everything in between.

Obviously they are not hunting down violators.

Quote:
B) If so, are there any exceptions or constraints I should be aware of?
See (A). In the extremely rare case that it is allowed, the establishment would probably require that all other filmed patrons are okay with it.

Quote:
C) Are these VLOG guys filming openly or surreptitiously?
Probably surreptitiously.

Quote:
D) If open filming is allowed, do players have a right to object?
Yes, just like I am allowed to object to the face of another man at a bar. The establishment can tell me to leave, tell him to leave, or do nothing at all.
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Old 05-10-2017, 11:57 PM   #4
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Re: Filming hands - is this allowed?

I'd assume it's not allowed in most, if not all, casinos, but it can be done inconspicuously by setting a phone/camera on the rail while recording.

Honestly if you're just looking for note-taking, this seems like a complicated way of doing it. Just take notes on your phone and do it immediately after the hand so the bet sizes are still fresh in your mind. Incorrectly thinking a bet was 50 when it really was 45 isn't going to matter much when you're reviewing the hand and IMO isn't worth the work of setting up a camera and reviewing/editing a video.
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Old 05-11-2017, 12:17 AM   #5
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Re: Filming hands - is this allowed?

If you watch the Neeme / Trooper / Owens / etc videos where they do this, note that they are not showing any other players, just the cards and chips on the table in front of them. You may see the other players' hands at most.

Unless they are sitting in the 4-5-6 seat it's probably damn near impossible to keep the camera pointed down like that and get the table cards anywhere near viewable/readable. It's certainly tough to get the community cards AND the opponents actions. So I find it hard to believe this is actually useful for taking notes on hands.

Therefore I've come to the conclusion the only people doing this are vloggers... no one else is going to benefit from this limited view type of recording unless you can talk about the story and overlay the audio with short clips of video, like those guys are doing.
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Old 05-11-2017, 03:07 AM   #6
Shai Hulud
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Re: Filming hands - is this allowed?

So it is allowed to set a cellphone on the felt? I thought this was against the rules. I was a little vague when I said they weren't allowed at the table, but what I meant was using one during a hand or putting it on the felt. I know players can use them when not in a hand, though I haven't seen anyone leave their phone on the felt. This is allowed??

Anyway, for me this seems like a better way of capturing the action, at least until I'm better with notes. Pairing video with notes or audio would be ideal, if necessary to fill in details not seen on camera. I'd like to capture as much information as possible to analyze my game and improve quickly.

Also, it might be hard with a cellphone to capture all the relevant action, but it would be pretty easy with (for example) glasses camera, or a hat camera, and if it's being done surreptitiously, I don't see the difference.
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Old 05-11-2017, 05:35 AM   #7
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Re: Filming hands - is this allowed?

If you have to video hands to learn, I'm not sure it's going to be as helpful as you think.
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Old 05-11-2017, 06:39 AM   #8
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Re: Filming hands - is this allowed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shai Hulud View Post
So it is allowed to set a cellphone on the felt? I thought this was against the rules. I was a little vague when I said they weren't allowed at the table, but what I meant was using one during a hand or putting it on the felt. I know players can use them when not in a hand, though I haven't seen anyone leave their phone on the felt. This is allowed??
Please quote where anyone said it's allowed.

Of course it's not allowed.
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Old 05-11-2017, 07:16 AM   #9
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Re: Filming hands - is this allowed?

This is a case where it truly does not matter whether it is allowed or not. It's like sunglasses at the table, you just don't do it because you look like a tool (and are a tool).
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Old 05-11-2017, 07:55 AM   #10
MikeStarr
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Re: Filming hands - is this allowed?

Where I play, people put the cell phones on the felt all the time. I dont know if its technically allowed or not, but nobody seems to care. I was told at one room that the only reason its not allowed is so you dont hide a card under the phone.

Videoing and taking pics def not allowed though.
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Old 05-11-2017, 09:42 AM   #11
TR3V
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Re: Filming hands - is this allowed?

I've seen these guys play, they aren't putting their cameras on the felt. On the rail or just holding it and recording from chest level.
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Old 05-11-2017, 09:42 AM   #12
dinesh
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Re: Filming hands - is this allowed?

Room rules vary. Some will allow phones on the felt. Some only on the rail. Some only in your hands. Some not at all.

I don't think there is a poker specific rule about taking photos or video, but casinos in general don't allow this in the name of security. In the age of selfies they tend to look the other way if you're taking a group photo having fun, or a quick pic of something not gaming related, but most would definitely not allow you to record a whole session of play. Other players would likely object too.

You can try to do it surreptitiously, but if you are caught, it's hard to guess what the punishment would be. Slap on the wrist up through talking to casino security or real police and a permanent ban. Up to you to decide if it's worth it.

Or you can just ask, and see what they say, then follow that. There's a 99% chance they'll say hell no, but no harm in asking.

I have no idea how the VLOG guys are doing it. Maybe ask them. Obviously some major tournaments are filmed, or LatB and similar "shows", and arrangements are made for this, possibly including jurisdictional approval.
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Old 05-11-2017, 09:44 AM   #13
albedoa
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Re: Filming hands - is this allowed?

The rule about no cell phones on the felt is often in effect but not enforced. I'll refrain from debating whether a rule that's not enforced is in effect. Many places have the rule, and some of those care less than others.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shai Hulud View Post
Anyway, for me this seems like a better way of capturing the action, at least until I'm better with notes.
The way to get better with notes is to practice taking notes, not substituting your note taking with a crutch.
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Old 05-11-2017, 09:51 AM   #14
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Re: Filming hands - is this allowed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dinesh View Post

I have no idea how the VLOG guys are doing it.
If told by the poker room not to video, none of the major vloggers will video during the game. They are not going to risk getting barred from a source of income.

Plus, what OP wants to do is so much more than what the vloggers do.
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Old 05-11-2017, 01:21 PM   #15
Fore
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Re: Filming hands - is this allowed?

If you use glasses hat or cell it does not matter. You can never identifiably video anyone without telling them first. In many settings you need a signed release. Soso be sure you dont video faces.

As to a few pics most casinos no longer mind an occasional pic if it is not of their security.
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Old 05-11-2017, 06:35 PM   #16
Shai Hulud
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Re: Filming hands - is this allowed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord_Crispen View Post
If you have to video hands to learn, I'm not sure it's going to be as helpful as you think.
Did I say I had to? It was a thought I had, after watching poker VLOGs. I'd like a comprehensive record of my play. If it's not possible, that's fine. It's why I'm asking. And if it's not that helpful, that's also fine. I can reevaluate and switch to other methods of note taking at any point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rapini
Please quote where anyone said it's allowed.

Of course it's not allowed.
Aldeboa - "Just a heads-up, casinos generally do allow cell phones at the table." Granted this is vague, but that's why I was asking for clarification of exactly what is meant by "cell phones at the table." And judging from several subsequent responses, clearly whether it's allowed is not as black and white as you seem to think.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldeboa
The way to get better with notes is to practice taking notes, not substituting your note taking with a crutch.
This is a fair point, but I can do both at the same time. The combination of notes + video surely contains more information than notes alone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AngusThermopyle
If told by the poker room not to video, none of the major vloggers will video during the game. They are not going to risk getting barred from a source of income.

Plus, what OP wants to do is so much more than what the vloggers do.
Agree on first point. Hypothetically, if I were filming and warned to stop, I would desist.

Disagree on second point. Filming hands and uploading them to the internet for them to be watched by hundreds of thousands of people is much more invasive than filming hands for personal use.
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Old 05-11-2017, 06:40 PM   #17
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Re: Filming hands - is this allowed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shai Hulud View Post


Disagree on second point. Filming hands and uploading them to the internet for them to be watched by hundreds of thousands of people is much more invasive than filming hands for personal use.
Not what I meant.

Name one vlog that records in such a way that it shows all the action, the board, the other player's cards, etc.

Now, where would your phone/camera have to be to show all the action?
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Old 05-11-2017, 07:25 PM   #18
Shai Hulud
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Re: Filming hands - is this allowed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AngusThermopyle View Post
Not what I meant.

Name one vlog that records in such a way that it shows all the action, the board, the other player's cards, etc.

Now, where would your phone/camera have to be to show all the action?
Okay I see what you're saying, but if I never shared such recordings with anyone, what difference would it make?

I think my phone sitting in a front shirt pocket could get all the action, or very close. Would depend where I'm sitting. There's also the surreptitious option of a glasses cam or hat cam, either of which would pick up whatever I'm looking at.
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Old 05-11-2017, 07:41 PM   #19
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Re: Filming hands - is this allowed?

It is totally room dependent on whether or not phones are allowed on the table. I've seen a few of his VLOGs too and to me it seems as if he doesn't record at all of the casinos he goes to? I think some allow him to do it and others flat out don't. At least that is what I thought...
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Old 05-12-2017, 12:37 AM   #20
NHTPA
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Re: Filming hands - is this allowed?

He has stated that some rooms have given him the okay to film, as long as he doesn't include other players in it. He has also stated that some rooms have asked him not to film, so it is room dependent.
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Old 05-12-2017, 04:08 PM   #21
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Re: Filming hands - is this allowed?

No tables on the felt by me. But loophole Place cell phone inside the cup holder . Can be on the phone while not in a hand . I see alot of older people watching movies on tablets. But also it's worth mentioning that every casino has different rules.

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Old 05-12-2017, 04:42 PM   #22
Kelvis
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Re: Filming hands - is this allowed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shai Hulud View Post
I think my phone sitting in a front shirt pocket could get all the action, or very close. Would depend where I'm sitting. There's also the surreptitious option of a glasses cam or hat cam, either of which would pick up whatever I'm looking at.
My goodness. I am going to make fun of you for this right now because if you do this people will and they should. Just learn to remember hands or make notes afterwards if you must but this is insane. It's laughable. Don't do this.

But if you must I suggest

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Old 05-12-2017, 07:06 PM   #23
Shai Hulud
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Re: Filming hands - is this allowed?

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Originally Posted by Kelvis View Post
My goodness. I am going to make fun of you for this right now because if you do this people will and they should. Just learn to remember hands or make notes afterwards if you must but this is insane. It's laughable. Don't do this.
A) I was answering a hypothetical about how one could capture all the action.

B) Nobody would think a phone sitting in a shirt pocket is anything unusual.

C) Have you seen modern DVR glasses or hats? Highly unlikely anyone would notice anything unusual.

Here's an example glasses cam and hat cam I found in about five seconds. They look like regular glasses and hats, especially the higher end ones.




Maybe it's laughable or a bad idea, but it would be very easy to do undetected. People wear glasses and people wear hats while playing. I can't think of any reason someone would find this suspicious.
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Old 05-12-2017, 07:17 PM   #24
MikeStarr
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Re: Filming hands - is this allowed?

I bet the battery in those glasses and hat with the hidden camera doesnt last more than an hour. The glasses do look suspicious. Lots of people are going to ask about the wire coming out of the glasses.
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Old 05-12-2017, 09:14 PM   #25
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Re: Filming hands - is this allowed?

How are you going to keep the shirt/hat/glasses camera stead with all your wiggling?
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