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Old 05-09-2013, 10:14 AM   #1
synth_floyd
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Do any casinos use "open stakes?" (as opposed to table stakes)

I was just watching the Cincinatti Kid and they were using the "open stakes" style of betting where you're allowed to bet money that's not on the table and even borrow in the middle of a hand. Then I looked up the concept of open stakes on Wikipedia and they said:

Quote:
In casinos, players are sometimes allowed to buy chips at the table during a hand, but are never allowed to borrow money or use IOUs. Other casinos, depending on protocol for buying chips, prohibit it as it slows gameplay considerably.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betting...er#Open_stakes

Has anyone ever been to or seen a situation in a casino in which open stakes were allowed?
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Old 05-09-2013, 11:00 AM   #2
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Re: Do any casinos use "open stakes?"

So everyone but fish buy in for the minimum and then add on when they have big hands?
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Old 05-09-2013, 12:07 PM   #3
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Re: Do any casinos use "open stakes?"

I played in underground LIMIT games where players did not play table stakes ..... but this was not an opton one had in the middle of a hand. If you weren't playing table stakes .... there was no such thing as going all in. If you were ran out of chips you played light and either paid out of pocket after the hand or borrowed the money from the guy running the game.


This obviously doesn't work for a No Limit game.
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Old 05-09-2013, 12:35 PM   #4
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Re: Do any casinos use "open stakes?"

I play in an open stakes spread limit home game. I have heard of underground games that allow this in NL/PL games in Dublin, but it's all super-shady due to the need for a "collections department."

Legit casinos would never permit this in a poker game, since there's no verification process between players. They might allow "insta-markers" in table games where the player was known to the casino. Charles Barkley got into trouble years ago for something similar with Wynn.
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Old 05-09-2013, 02:08 PM   #5
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Re: Do any casinos use "open stakes?"

Wouldn't Bill Gates (or whoever) just be able to over bet every hand, and no one would be able to call because they can't match the bet? I guess if nothing else it would be an interesting exercise of the Kelly criterion.
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Old 05-09-2013, 02:11 PM   #6
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Re: Do any casinos use "open stakes?"

Quote:
Originally Posted by asdfasdf32 View Post
Wouldn't Bill Gates (or whoever) just be able to over bet every hand, and no one would be able to call because they can't match the bet?
Not what the question was about. You still cannot be "bet out of a hand", just that you can call all in preflop with $50 vs a $1000 stack and then pull out $950 if you hit your set.
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Old 05-09-2013, 02:17 PM   #7
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Re: Do any casinos use "open stakes?"

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Originally Posted by AngusThermopyle View Post
Not what the question was about. You still cannot be "bet out of a hand", just that you can call all in preflop with $50 vs a $1000 stack and then pull out $950 if you hit your set.
I don't think that's correct. From his link:

Quote:
...a large bankroll meant an unfair advantage; raising the bet beyond what a player could cover in cash gave the player only two options; buy a larger stake (borrowing if necessary) or fold.
Additionally, I've never seen the action you're referring to in Cincinatti Kid, or any other old poker movie.

EDIT: It seems with the "modern open stakes" you can go "all in" instead of adding money to call a bet, so the 'Bill Gates objection' wouldn't apply. However, you cannot, from what I can tell, add additionally money after doing so, i.e. you cannot go "all in" for $50 preflop, and then add on $5000 after hitting top set.

Last edited by asdfasdf32; 05-09-2013 at 02:39 PM.
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Old 05-09-2013, 02:31 PM   #8
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Re: Do any casinos use "open stakes?"

Quote:
Originally Posted by asdfasdf32 View Post
Additionally, I've never seen the action you're referring to in Cincinatti Kid, or any other old poker movie.
You're kidding right? It's in the last poker scene.

http://youtu.be/ZnMir5eQsWA

2:45 the kid goes all in

3:25 the man raises $5000

4:15 they discuss markers

Last edited by Zak3nnay0; 05-09-2013 at 02:37 PM.
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Old 05-09-2013, 02:41 PM   #9
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Re: Do any casinos use "open stakes?"

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Originally Posted by Zak3nnay0 View Post
You're kidding right? It's in the last poker scene.
Errr, he never went "all in" to call one street and then on the next street added money.

Quote:
http://youtu.be/ZnMir5eQsWA

2:45 the kid goes all in

3:25 the man raises $5000

4:15 they discuss markers
To your edit:

Yes, he bet what he had in from of him, but he didn't "go all in". As in, he wasn't refusing to call a larger bet and deciding to play table stakes only.
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Old 05-09-2013, 03:08 PM   #10
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Re: Do any casinos use "open stakes?"

Quote:
Originally Posted by asdfasdf32 View Post
Wouldn't Bill Gates (or whoever) just be able to over bet every hand, and no one would be able to call because they can't match the bet? I guess if nothing else it would be an interesting exercise of the Kelly criterion.
um no... they wouldn't need to "match the bet". They would be all-in-for-less for whatever their net worth is.
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Old 05-09-2013, 03:31 PM   #11
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Re: Do any casinos use "open stakes?"

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Originally Posted by Playbig2000 View Post
um no... they wouldn't need to "match the bet". They would be all-in-for-less for whatever their net worth is.
No. Read the wiki.

Quote:
...a large bankroll meant an unfair advantage; raising the bet beyond what a player could cover in cash gave the player only two options; buy a larger stake (borrowing if necessary) or fold.
Quote:
In modern open-stakes rules, a player may go all in as in table stakes if he so chooses...
It's either "match the bet or fold" [older open stakes], or you have the option to "match the bet, go 'all-in' (playing table stakes), or fold" [modern open stakes].
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Old 05-09-2013, 03:51 PM   #12
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Re: Do any casinos use "open stakes?"

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Originally Posted by asdfasdf32 View Post
No. Read the wiki.

The Wiki is based on movies and novels, not facts.
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Old 05-09-2013, 03:53 PM   #13
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Re: Do any casinos use "open stakes?"

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Originally Posted by AngusThermopyle View Post
The Wiki is based on movies and novels, not facts.
Okay. Can you provide a cite for your particular interpretation of open stakes?
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Old 05-09-2013, 04:25 PM   #14
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Re: Do any casinos use "open stakes?"

In the highest stakes games, sometimes a player will be playing "open", which is he has no money on him, no chips, but everyone knows he is good for it. The players themselves will keep track of what is owed. This is mostly for limit games, although I'm sure I've seen it a few times in NL, but very rarely.
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Old 05-09-2013, 04:57 PM   #15
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Re: Do any casinos use "open stakes?"

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Originally Posted by simonphoenix View Post
In the highest stakes games,
Not in a legit casino.
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Old 05-09-2013, 06:50 PM   #16
Bene Gesserit
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Re: Do any casinos use "open stakes?"

There is a reason open stakes is a rare to extinct animal these days. It proved to be insane to play that way!
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Old 05-09-2013, 07:01 PM   #17
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Re: Do any casinos use "open stakes?"

This is basically the plot of "A Big Hand for the Little Lady", which involves the characters wandering around the town trying to convince someone to loan them money to cover a bet in the middle of a poker hand.
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Old 05-09-2013, 09:05 PM   #18
KL03
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Re: Do any casinos use "open stakes?"

The idea of someone being forced to call the entire amount of a bet that exceeds their stack is ridiculous and I doubt any casino follows that rule.
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Old 05-09-2013, 09:42 PM   #19
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Re: Do any casinos use "open stakes?"

Quote:
Originally Posted by psandman View Post
I played in underground LIMIT games where players did not play table stakes ..... but this was not an opton one had in the middle of a hand. If you weren't playing table stakes .... there was no such thing as going all in. If you were ran out of chips you played light and either paid out of pocket after the hand or borrowed the money from the guy running the game.


This obviously doesn't work for a No Limit game.
This is also the only time I've ever seen it. Basically the people who were playing with the option of never being all in had a chip in front of them that said "BEHIND" on it, which meant they always had money behind.
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Old 05-09-2013, 11:49 PM   #20
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Re: Do any casinos use "open stakes?" (as opposed to table stakes)

Quote:
Originally Posted by psandman View Post
I played in underground LIMIT games where players did not play table stakes ..... but this was not an opton one had in the middle of a hand. If you weren't playing table stakes .... there was no such thing as going all in. If you were ran out of chips you played light and either paid out of pocket after the hand or borrowed the money from the guy running the game.


This obviously doesn't work for a No Limit game.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rapini View Post
This is also the only time I've ever seen it. Basically the people who were playing with the option of never being all in had a chip in front of them that said "BEHIND" on it, which meant they always had money behind.
Ditto. I have played in mid limit mixed games where all players were required to cover all bets at all times and were responsible for making up the light amount after the hand. I honestly liked it because there were no short stacks and the action tended to be very heavy.
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