This was an 8/16 game with a half kill, the pot was a 12/24 kill pot. The game was at Canterbury Park where their house rule says that you can not fold if you are not facing a bet. Players often do this anyway and dealers often kill their hand, you typically just get a warning if you do it too often.

Someone straddled to $24 and the next player put out a dead 3 bet to $36. Two players called and the straddle called. Flop 886 and the dead three player bets. All 4 call. Turn K, check, check, player folds from 1 seat by tossing is card forward...not near the muck, LP player checks. Dealer then pushes the cards back to the player and tells him he cant fold unless facing a bet. River 2, straddle bets out, dead 3 folds, seat 1 now finds a call, LP folds.


Thoughts????

If the room rules say you can't fold, then you can't fold. But it's a stupid rule if so.

You specifically say there's a house rule that states the player isn't allowed to fold. Are you really asking if the dealer was supposed to help the player break the rules just because in other situations, dealers assist players in violating said rule?

Yes, that is exactly what I am asking.

The rule is that you can't fold your cards if you aren't facing a bet. But he broke the rule and mucked his cards. So, what, given this house "rule" be the standard? Should he be allowed to unmuck his cards or should he be warned for mucking his cards out of turn?

The only time I recall seeing the dealer push a players cards back is if they unknowingly mucked their big blind without a raise. In that case, the action is closed until the flop is dealt.


For the record, I was neither of the players making a claim to the pot.

By rule it is a live hand. Poorly enforced rule.

I have no problem with the rule, but if someone open folds, their cards should be mucked and they should be given a warning about the rule. If they continue to violate the rule they should be asked to leave. Pushing their cards back to them is bad practice IMO.

Poker pedants will point out that players fold, dealers muck. Since he was not allowed the option of folding, and his cards were not compromised, then his hand is still live

I think it's a good rule, proper procedure was followed, and that was a good ruling.

Maybe guy accidentally tossed his cards because he mistakenly thought there was a bet. Totally fair to push his hand back, the same as in the unraised big blind example you gave.

the dealer should have mucked it originally and gave him a warning like they've done before.

If the house does have a no check-out rule, they should have another rule for dealers to call the floor for a warning instead of giving the cards back.

Is this the actual rule? I thought they would let you do it, but give you a warning not to do it, and if you kept doing it they might ask you to leave.

Maybe we can get ChopperVail to comment on what the house rule really is.

I admittedly haven't been out there as much lately and when I do go it's 6-12 or lower, but I've seen this happen exactly as described more than once at CP and consistently enforced this way.

If someone is new, drunk, not paying attention it's mucked the 2nd time, but the first time was handed back and still live every time I can think of seeing an out of turn fold.

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Agree with this, but anybody at that able arguing the hand should be dead is either a fool, an angle-shooter, or both.

Even if there was no rule about this, I'm still not killing his hand after the dealer pushes the hand back to him (KITN to dealer for this), a river is dealt, and there's action on the river.

Canterbury Park does not allow folding out of turn or folding while not facing a bet. This rule is our "Etiquette" section and violating the rule will usually warrant a warning, and if a habit, may result in a day off from poker. Canterbury also has a rule that states "a hand that is clearly identifiable may be retrieved if, at the management's discretion, doing so is in the best interest of the game."

If a player- not facing a bet- throws in their cards, and any portion hits the muck, I'm ruling that the hand is dead. However, since the hand never reached the muck, I think in this situation, the dealer did the right thing with the exception of possibly calling the floor to warn the player.

Having trouble reconciling "clearly identifiable" with "any portion hits the muck" unless for some reason one is in the best interest of the game and the other is not.

his fold really should stand. You can't fold then decide to bet, that's not poker.

The dealers should be instructed to muck the cards and call the floor over for a warning, they should never give the cards back and let them continue to play after they decided to fold, whether facing action or not. The only exception and dealer's discretion should be if someone inadvertently folds his BB.

In practice (at 8/16 on up, maybe it is different on blue chip games), the dealer usually pauses, looks at the player, slowly mucks their hand (giving them a player to say something) and then warns them not to "check out".

His fold is not acceptable since he is not facing a bet. However if his hand hits the muck, it is not being retrieved. The player who mistakenly attempted to fold, will not be allowed to take aggressive action on that street and will be forced to check, akin to a BB accidentally attempting to fold his hand.

That's as much poker as the BB acting like he's folding to no preflop raise with AA and putting in a big raise after 'realizing his mistake'. I am pretty sure everybody here has seen that move..

I am not sure what would make any of that "not poker".

Acting like he's about to fold and actually folding are two different things. That's just hollywooding.

You're right, it is not acceptable, but he should not be given his cards back. You are just opening up yourselves to angleshooters. I can fold OOT hoping to entice a bet after me because I know the dealer will give me my cards back. Then I can call and jam on the next street or whatever.

The hand should be mucked and a warning given.

But why? What purpose does that serve?
You risk the chance of the dealer mucking your hand instead of giving it back, for what, deception? And especially, deception in a LHE or 2-100 spread game?

Also Canterbury doesn't have a big angleshooter epidemic.

And also: the dealer is more likely to muck your hand if they know that you know what you're doing. The "giving your cards back" rule is to be friendly to newbies and the elderly.