How wrong was the dealer to do this:

1/2 game, 9 handed and I am in the 8. I forget the preflop action, I was either BB or SB and completed with A8 suited. Flop is something like 358 rainbow. I bet 10 into a roughly 10 dollar limped pot.. Folds around to the 4 seat who puts in 20. Folds back to me. I see no visible chips in front of seat 4, so I verbally call, move my chips in, and table my hand.

Someone says something about it not being all in right at the same time the dealer slaps her hand over my cards, then flips them back over. Seat 4 apparently didn't see my cards, but basically everyone else at the table did, and they all know what I have. He did see my cards go forward, half way across the betting line, and he claims he thought I folded.

At this point I no one realizesbtgat seat 4 didn't read my cards when they were face up. Play continues, and I assume I am playing against someone who knows my cards. Turn is an A and I bet. Seat 4 calls all in (he was a short stack) with A7o. At this point we all realize that he never saw my cards.

Watching seat 4 later, it becomes clear to me that he has a habit of picking up his entire short stack in his hand, which explains why I didn't see his remaining chips.

TL;DR: hero tavles hand thinking V is all in, dealer flips it back, hero felts villain.

Did dealer screw up? If so, how big of a screw up? Was my table forward partially across the betting line, when accompanied by obvious intent to call actually a fold like villain believed?

Excuse the typos, I made the original post from my tiny screened phone in the dark, and I have fat fingers.

Dealer protected the game and the action as best she could. She knew the stack size of the player and where the action actually was.

Someone did make a mistake at the table - multiple mistakes - but it wasn't the dealer.

Next time ask if the villain is all in, and don't table your hand unless the dealer indicates he needs to see a winner.

Go back and read what you wrote ..... YOU VERBALLY CALLED. there is no issue about whether your cards going forward are a fold here.

He could still muck his cards after the call, but yeah I think the issue is the dealer flipping your hand back over. It was heads up so you were allowed to show your hand yet the dealer flipped your hand back over likely realizing why you had unintentionally tabled your hand. It was a mistake bacause the dealer was protecting your hand by interpreting the action for you. If you had reraised flipped over your cards and said "don't call I have you beat," the dealer would probably not have turned your cards back over.

What exactly do you believe the dealer did wrong?

A couple other players felt very strongly that the dealer should never have touched my cards or done anything to make up for my mistake. Frankly I wasn't sure that I disagreed with them at the time. Once I made the initial mistake of tabling my hand, things moved pretty fast, and I didn't really think clearly on the subject.

Ultimately a super nice guy in the 5 seat talked 4 off the ledge, and we moved on to the next hand.

The dealer made no mistake here. Yes the dealer unexpectedly protected you from the mistake YOU made. Hopefully you thanked her with a generous tip.

And you verbally called, so no, there is no case for claiming you folded.

**** him. If he insists on holding his chips in his hand(shortstacked or not), then what does he expect? Imo, none of this transpires if he just leaves his chips(like he's supposed to, esp. in NL) on the felt. And now he wants to somehow weasel his way into convincing everyone that "Hey, he folded!" Again, **** him. Leave your chips where they belong so your opponents can see what's in front of you.

Kudos to the dealer for actually watching the game. I have no problem with her doing that because you already "called." And no, there was no screw up here, you pushed your *tabled* hand forward because you wanted villain/dealer to be able to clearly see your cards as you thought this was the usual all in situation, and, that's what players do in these situations etc. etc.. It's all good.

I would have zero problem with a dealer doing this if my Opponent mistakenly exposed his cards (I never conceal my chips, but the Opponent might accidentally expose his cards for another reason).

I'm with most others here: dealer did good by quickly realizing your mistake and flipping hole cards back. And I can't for the life of me think why villain would think at any time you folded.

I'm gonna have an unpopular opinion here and say I don't think the dealer should be doing this. I think alerting OP like "Hey, he still has chips behind" is fine but I think physically grabbing OPs hand and turning it back over is crossing a line.

That being sad, this is about a 2 on the 'Things a dealer shouldn't do' chart.

I don't really understand the basis for your opinion here.
I get that there are going to be some people who think that anytime a player makes a mistake that its fair to take advantage of it and a dealer interfering with that is wrong. They would object to the dealer even alerting the player of the mistake.

I get that there is going to be someone who thinks anytime a player releases his hand like this it should be a fold. Theya re going to object to the dealer not mucking the cards.

But I can't figure out your objection which seems to be its fine for the dealer to try to protect the player .... but only if he doesn't touch the cards. Why is it that touching the cards draws a line for you? How about if he didn't touch them put his hand in front of them so opponent couldn't see them? How about if he saw it happening and reached out and touched the players hand to prevent him from turning them up?

Again, I think verbally trying to help players is fine, but making physical actions are not. So, no, I don't think the dealer should be doing any of the above either.

The guy in seat 1 has his cards unprotected and pushed out and near me. Is it okay if I push them back towards him as I tell him to protect them? Or does that cross your line of physical action? How about if I put one of his chips on top of his cards (assume he does not object to my touching his chip)?

I've answered this question like twice now so I don't get why you keep asking. No, I also don't think that's ok. Telling the player how they can protect their hand better is fine.

You have given any basis for your position....so I am probing it trying to find one. Sadly I can't figure out WHY you think this sort of action crosses the line.

I'm happy with the dealer in this case. I'd also like to see the V warned about having his chipstack visible at all times.

If V has a big stack, and player makes the same 'mistake', then I'm OK with the dealer keeping to verbal suggestions.

Why is villain allowed to play the chips hidden in his hand? Shouldn't those chips be considered unplayable? This is exactly how people add chips to their stack mid hand. Hero called all of villains visible chips. Dealer should have left hero's hand face up. Time to show turn and river and figure out who won.

Have you ever been in a live poker room. People have chips in their hands all the time. they are shuffling them, rotating them snapping them ....

It would be great if people didn't do that. If they only touched their chips while they were betting them and stacking a pot. And it would be great if they didn;t keep there hands on the table blocking the view of their chips. And it would be great if omaha players didn't constantly hold their cards in their hands.

But in real poker rooms this is constantly happening. And you can't stop it and you can't arbitrarily decide that chips in your hand don't play because soon there will be no chips in play.


I get it. It sucks .... but if your answer is that the dealer should have said the chips in the guys hand don;t play and run it out as an all-in you are asking for disaster.

Yes we can't allow players to hide chips .... but we have to understand that they are going to handle chips and this is not the same thing as hiding chips even if for a moment they are not seen by an opponent who is not fully observant.

Ruling the chips in hand don't play is ridiculous, but so is punishing the OP because Seat 4 was doing something wrong.

Seat 4 is clearly most at fault and deserves the plurality if not majority of any punishment to be handed out.

Dealer may or may not have made a mistake. As a general rule, the dealer shouldn't be touching cards like this, but if an exception were to be made under any circumstance, certainly this is one.

OP should, obviously, pay more attention to opponents' stack sizes before betting.

You shouldn't benefit from hiding your chips. The dealer prevented him from benefiting. Good job dealer.

I'm not understanding the difference between "physical actions" and "verbal actions" as far as what you believe the dealer is permitted to do.

In our room, our dealers are tasked with protecting the players. This includes pushing the big blind back their cards if they mistakenly try to fold on a non-raised pre-flop pot. The OP situation would fall into this category, and I applaud the dealer for doing what they did to protect the game.

Obviously there was a misunderstanding, and it appears that the dealer acted quickly and handled it in a professional manner.

I'm sorry but that's complete BS that players hold ALL of their chips(which is what occurred here) when playing a hand. Not saying that it doesn't happen but it's def. not the norm, and, this def should've played a role on any/all decisions regarding how to proceed/rule on this so-called mishap.