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bet and call of less that minimum bet and call of less that minimum

07-05-2017 , 05:20 AM
tournament action

blinds just went up to 100/200

Utg calls 200 PF, all others fold to BB who checks.

flop comes - check check

turn comes, BB bets 100, UTG calls.

river comes - UTG says - "Hey that last bet should have been 200"

floor call

what would you do here?

(as it went, UTG was wanting a new river card in his complaint - FYI that didnt happen, nor IMO should it have. I am not sure if I would have ruled action made and accepted and move on, or make BB put in another 100, and UTG can put in another 100 and then river action begins or UTG can just fold and is out 100 - btw this 2nd choice was the ruling)
bet and call of less that minimum Quote
07-05-2017 , 06:34 AM
The 100 bet was made and accepted on a previous street. Action is now on the angleshooter hopelessly wanting a new river card.
bet and call of less that minimum Quote
07-05-2017 , 07:57 AM
Options:
1- Ignore the problem and play on. T200 min bet on river.
2- Force both players to put in an additional T100 now. Play on, T200 min bet on river.
3- Force both players to put in an additional T100 now. Deal new card for river.

1 > 2 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Laugh angleshooter out of casino >>>>>>>>>>>>>








3

Last edited by dinesh; 07-05-2017 at 08:45 AM.
bet and call of less that minimum Quote
07-05-2017 , 08:24 AM
I'd say 2 > 1 since it's a tournament. Cash game, I don't care.
bet and call of less that minimum Quote
07-05-2017 , 09:16 AM
Yeah can't have people just making up random bets. Each put in another 100 and nothing changes.

If it's cash I don't care what they do in a heads up pot but what if one of them is really short and at risk of busting, by letting them bet less that is a disadvantage to other people in the tournament.
bet and call of less that minimum Quote
07-05-2017 , 09:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by albedoa
I'd say 2 > 1 since it's a tournament. Cash game, I don't care.
Where would you draw the line?

Suppose the undersized bet was an undersized raise preflop. And then it gets mentioned after the river action is complete? After the pot is pushed?
bet and call of less that minimum Quote
07-05-2017 , 10:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dinesh
Options:
1- Ignore the problem and play on. T200 min bet on river.
2- Force both players to put in an additional T100 now. Play on, T200 min bet on river.
3- Force both players to put in an additional T100 now. Deal new card for river.

1 > 2 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Laugh angleshooter out of casino >>>>>>>>>>>>>








3
You're going to have to include the possibility of the caller folding the turn somewhere, probably in option 2.
bet and call of less that minimum Quote
07-05-2017 , 10:53 AM
My line is "within reason", the definition of which I leave to be mangled by a floorperson.
bet and call of less that minimum Quote
07-05-2017 , 02:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dinesh
Options:
1- Ignore the problem and play on. T200 min bet on river.
2- Force both players to put in an additional T100 now. Play on, T200 min bet on river.
These are the only options and option 1 is the correct answer.
bet and call of less that minimum Quote
07-05-2017 , 03:03 PM
I'm surprised by the choice of 1 over 2 by you two but I don't play tournaments and had assumed it was important to make the bet right. I concede.
bet and call of less that minimum Quote
07-05-2017 , 03:29 PM
I think for this exact situation that option 2 might actually be a better choice but since it isn't addressed in the TDA rules that I know of, I just automatically resort to what you might find in RRoP which says it must be corrected only if noticed before the betting round is complete.
bet and call of less that minimum Quote
07-05-2017 , 03:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suit
I think for this exact situation that option 2 might actually be a better choice but since it isn't addressed in the TDA rules that I know of, I just automatically resort to what you might find in RRoP which says it must be corrected only if noticed before the betting round is complete.
I think in this case it's important that nobody has acted on the river yet.
bet and call of less that minimum Quote
07-05-2017 , 04:42 PM
I would think you have to let the bet stand b/c caller can always say, "Geez, if I knew it was 200 I would've folded."

Then again, I think laughing him out of the casino for trying to get a new river >>>> 1 > 2
bet and call of less that minimum Quote
07-05-2017 , 05:02 PM
I look at the guy who wants a new river and say:
We can either let the bet and call stand as is or make the bet 200 and you have the option to call or fold - which do you prefer?

And then I do the exact opposite and tell him to stfu about getting a new river card.
bet and call of less that minimum Quote
07-05-2017 , 09:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by psandman
Where would you draw the line?

Suppose the undersized bet was an undersized raise preflop. And then it gets mentioned after the river action is complete? After the pot is pushed?
Agree with this. Action offered and accepted. KITN to the dealer. LOL and KITN to UTG for calling the bet and then wanting a new river card.
bet and call of less that minimum Quote
07-05-2017 , 09:22 PM
#2 leaves open the possibility that one of the players knew it was too small an amount but waited to see if a good card came out before saying anything. For that reason, I'd go with #1. It's accepted action, just like an improper number given by the dealer in a pot limit game.
bet and call of less that minimum Quote
07-06-2017 , 02:43 AM
Thanks for the comments.

From the discussions I think the correct ruling would be 1. action made/accepted move on, this rules out any angles (which has a good chance of being the situation here) which IMO is more important than whether or not the 'rest of the players' receive a disadvantage for one hand. Should it matter that this was a STS(STSNG) on the first hand of the 4th blind level?
bet and call of less that minimum Quote
07-06-2017 , 05:18 AM
Why would STT vs MTT matter? Or blind level? I honestly don't see how this could matter. First hand on a new level, I can forgive mistakes a wee bit more, but that still wouldn't change the ruling.
bet and call of less that minimum Quote
07-06-2017 , 05:47 AM
Yup, the fact the undersized bet was made and called without a player or the dealer noticing right away is unusual. However, once the river is dealt out, the action has been accepted by both players and the dealer. I have seen a similar scenario happen in PLO where a player bet slightly more than the pot and was called. The mistake was not caught until the next street was already dealt. The floor ruled the same as being accepted action.
bet and call of less that minimum Quote
07-06-2017 , 08:46 AM
Sry guys, what does KITN mean?
bet and call of less that minimum Quote
07-06-2017 , 09:01 AM
Kick In The Nuts
bet and call of less that minimum Quote
07-09-2017 , 02:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil9
Yup, the fact the undersized bet was made and called without a player or the dealer noticing right away is unusual. However, once the river is dealt out, the action has been accepted by both players and the dealer. I have seen a similar scenario happen in PLO where a player bet slightly more than the pot and was called. The mistake was not caught until the next street was already dealt. The floor ruled the same as being accepted action.
Technically in some sets this is actually a written rule when it comes to PLO in a cash game, I do not know of such a rule in NLH, especially in tourney, for the exception of the RROP rule Suit describes.

Yea I dont think it matters what type of tourney it was either, just trowing that out for more discussion.
bet and call of less that minimum Quote
07-09-2017 , 03:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suit
I think for this exact situation that option 2 might actually be a better choice but since it isn't addressed in the TDA rules that I know of, I just automatically resort to what you might find in RRoP which says it must be corrected only if noticed before the betting round is complete.
TDA Rule 35:
Quote:
Substantial Action
Substantial Action is either A) any 2 actions in turn, at least one of which puts chips in the pot (i.e. any 2 actions except 2 checks or 2 folds) or B) any combination of 3 actions in turn (check, bet, raise, call, fold). See Rules 34-D & 40-B.
bet and call of less that minimum Quote
07-09-2017 , 04:25 PM
Yes, that is the definition of substantial action. It is relevant in the determination of misdeals and OOT action in the TDA rules.

The TDA rules don't address determining how to handle the discovery that less than the minimum bet amount was made and called on a previous street.

I'm not sure what RRoP rule Suit was referring to, as I don't think there's a rule there to handle undersized bets on a previous street either, unless I'm missing it. There is a similar rule about oversized bets in pot limit games, though, which does indeed say it can only be corrected until "all players have acted on it" or in some cases even a shorter time.
Quote:
2. The dealer or any player in the game can and should call attention to a wager that appears to exceed the pot size (this also applies to heads-up pots). The oversize wager may be corrected at any point until all players have acted on it.

3. If an oversize wager has stood for a length of time with someone considering what action to take, that person has had to act on a wager that was thought to be a certain size. If the player then decides to call or raise, and attention is called at this late point to whether this is an allowable amount, the floorperson may rule that the oversize amount must stand (especially if the person now trying to reduce the amount is the person that made the wager).

Last edited by dinesh; 07-09-2017 at 04:30 PM.
bet and call of less that minimum Quote
07-09-2017 , 05:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dinesh
Quote:
2. The dealer or any player in the game can and should call attention to a wager that appears to exceed the pot size (this also applies to heads-up pots). The oversize wager may be corrected at any point until all players have acted on it.
Does the bolded part of the quote apply in this case?
bet and call of less that minimum Quote

      
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