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Old 12-29-2009, 07:19 PM   #26
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Re: banned from casino...advice on appeal?

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Originally Posted by Burly Samoan View Post
I will wait till the big thursday tourney before attempting to play blackjack again for sure.
After being kicked out once at a place where you obviously wish to continue to play poker, this is simply mind-boggling.
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Old 12-29-2009, 10:11 PM   #27
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Re: banned from casino...advice on appeal?

A young reg at Turning Stone got into a shoving match with another player (no punches, but pushing physically) in the poker room and was given a lifetime ban.

A lawyer friend of his called the casino, asked what they wanted, and they said he could pay a $300 fine to the tribe.

He paid it, and got reinstated.
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Old 12-29-2009, 10:36 PM   #28
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Re: banned from casino...advice on appeal?

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Originally Posted by Burly Samoan View Post
well I was attempting to count, but I am definitely no expert as I get confused from time to time. if I'm not sure if it's +1 or +2 for example I play it safe and go to +1. I'm sure I showed some suspicious patterns..only taking insurance when betting big for example

behavior wise if anything I was behaving too well...not talking to others enough. I've heard this is a red flag so I'll try to work on it. I was drinking though which I was hoping took some heat off but guess not. Also I made the mistake of camping out too long at one table so they could watch me too easily

but I do have good news! I called them and they told me it was just a 24 hour ejection. They still did not give me a reason they just said it was a business decision. I will wait till the big thursday tourney before attempting to play blackjack again for sure. Should I run it by security first when I get there to make sure I don't get kicked out mid session?
FYI, "It was a business decision" is code for "we think you were counting cards." No casino will EVER give you a reason if they suspect you're an advantage player. If you were, in fact, counting (or even attempting to count), you can just assume that's the reason.

Don't let their politeness fool you, you are definitely not welcome at the blackjack tables. If you want to continue playing poker there, don't play any more blackjack. Next time, they probably won't be so polite when they ask you to leave, and they certainly won't allow you to come back again.

If for some reason, you still insist on trying to play blackjack again (maybe there are 10 other casinos in town, and you don't really care for this one?), wait at least a few months. If they have your name and rating information, DON'T use your rating card. Don't play on the same shift as when you were backed off. And don't camp out all night at one table. Play a few shoes and leave. Or walk around the pit and back count a few tables until you find a hot shoe, jump in, play, then leave.

Whatever you do, don't run over to security and identify yourself as someone they've previously backed off for counting! What do you think they will say, "Yeah, sure. We wanted to watch you play some more because we weren't quite sure if you were counting. Thanks for letting us know you're here. Carry on. Don't win too much, ha ha!" Haven't you seen the movie 21? You want to AVOID interacting with security. Keep a low profile. If you get caught again, don't admit to doing anything, don't show your ID and don't sign anything. That way, if you ever want to come back they won't have any proof that they ever 86'd you.

Seriously, though, your chances of winning are much higher if you stick to poker (with 0% chance of getting kicked out). Save your card counting practice for trips to Vegas, where it's way easier to blend in and nobody even looks at you twice unless you're betting $1000 a hand.

Good Luck!
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Old 12-29-2009, 11:01 PM   #29
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Re: banned from casino...advice on appeal?

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Originally Posted by Tom Ames View Post
After being kicked out once at a place where you obviously wish to continue to play poker, this is simply mind-boggling.
+1000

To play BJ there again is insane. Really.

BTW, they don't have to look at you, see you sweat or anything else. All they have to look for is that you are varying your bet sizes. You'll notice that most other players bet the same amount every hand. As soon as you start moving from the minimum bet size to 4X+, they know you are counting.
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Old 12-29-2009, 11:33 PM   #30
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Re: banned from casino...advice on appeal?

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Originally Posted by Kitty Viola View Post
Whatever you do, don't run over to security and identify yourself as someone they've previously backed off for counting! What do you think they will say, "Yeah, sure. We wanted to watch you play some more because we weren't quite sure if you were counting. Thanks for letting us know you're here. Carry on. Don't win too much, ha ha!" Haven't you seen the movie 21? You want to AVOID interacting with security. Keep a low profile. If you get caught again, don't admit to doing anything, don't show your ID and don't sign anything. That way, if you ever want to come back they won't have any proof that they ever 86'd you.
fwiw I meant if I'm going there to play poker...don't want to get DQed at final table or something. just wondering if I should confirm I'm allowed back in, but it sounds like they won't bug me unless I go to blackjack
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Old 12-30-2009, 12:22 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by venice10 View Post
+1000

To play BJ there again is insane. Really.

BTW, they don't have to look at you, see you sweat or anything else. All they have to look for is that you are varying your bet sizes. You'll notice that most other players bet the same amount every hand. As soon as you start moving from the minimum bet size to 4X+, they know you are counting.
Yeah next time try to keep the running count in your head. Don't count it out on your fingers with your lips all moving and stuff. They can spot that with the cameras.
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Old 12-30-2009, 12:57 AM   #32
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Re: banned from casino...advice on appeal?

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Originally Posted by Burly Samoan View Post
well I was attempting to count, but I am definitely no expert as I get confused from time to time. if I'm not sure if it's +1 or +2 for example I play it safe and go to +1. I'm sure I showed some suspicious patterns..only taking insurance when betting big for example
It is more likely your betting patterns that tipped them off to the counting.

How were you varying your bets?
Were you sometimes betting two hands and sometimes not?
(How many decks was this? What was the min bet.)

Were you making index plays?

How long were you playing?
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Old 12-30-2009, 01:15 AM   #33
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Re: banned from casino...advice on appeal?

learn how to hole card and go to vegas. they won't let u back for sure, i didn;t even know they had decent games there. try beau rivage also
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Old 12-30-2009, 01:28 AM   #34
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Re: banned from casino...advice on appeal?

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Originally Posted by ComboProf View Post
It is more likely your betting patterns that tipped them off to the counting.

How were you varying your bets?
Were you sometimes betting two hands and sometimes not?
(How many decks was this? What was the min bet.)

Were you making index plays?

How long were you playing?
index plays are the illustrious 18? I sometimes doubled on T vs T, 2 v 9, took insurance, stayed on 15 vs 10...never split tens tho. spreading 25-300 and for a brief time 50-600 when they changed my table to a 50 min

was 6 deck . I prob stayed for over 3 hours at the same table

One last question, what will happen if I go there and just flat bet. Don't think theres anyway to beat it that way but I'd be pretty close to 0 and I'm a degen so I'd want to play, though not as much as I was planning to. Since I am unlikely to be able to count here again, and would rather hold out in case limits get raised and cash games get juicy as that will prob be more profitable esp with the red flags on me, should I just tell them to flat bet me so I can gamble for fun?
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Old 12-30-2009, 01:40 AM   #35
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Re: banned from casino...advice on appeal?

a lot of you don't understand that he got kicked out because they think he is an advantage player and don't want his business. i'm banned from mohegan because they gave me the wrong players card and i used the points. it had my name on it so I thought it was mine. I went to the national indian gamng commission and they did nothing. don't gamble on indian reservations you have no rights.
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Old 12-30-2009, 01:33 PM   #36
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Re: banned from casino...advice on appeal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Burly Samoan View Post
index plays are the illustrious 18? I sometimes doubled on T vs T, 2 v 9, took insurance, stayed on 15 vs 10...never split tens tho. spreading 25-300 and for a brief time 50-600 when they changed my table to a 50 min

was 6 deck . I prob stayed for over 3 hours at the same table

One last question, what will happen if I go there and just flat bet. Don't think theres anyway to beat it that way but I'd be pretty close to 0 and I'm a degen so I'd want to play
If you're spreading 1:12 and not making a significant profit you've got some huge mistakes in your game. If you want longevity, you've got to keep your bet spread down - you're probably making a lot of basic strategy mistakes and the fact that you're not giving I18 numbers makes me suspicious that you don't know them all that well. Making a few small mistakes an hour is enough to erase your edge from counting.

Also, make sure your game is beatable. If it's 6D H17, you're going to need really good penetration. If you want to do this long-term, you're best off scouting out the dealers who give the best penetration and play exclusively with them - this will limit the length of your session (but increase your waiting time) and extend longevity.

If you're going to flat bet, I don't think you'll have any problems with security. When you're banned from the property permanently, you'll know it because they're legally required to read you laws and stuff. Your player's card is probably flagged so don't use that any more.

Post on blackjack forums for more advice. bj21.com or blackjackinfo.com both have good ones.
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Old 12-30-2009, 01:59 PM   #37
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Re: banned from casino...advice on appeal?

the worst game you should play is 6 decks 1 cutoff ls, respilt aces
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Old 12-30-2009, 03:13 PM   #38
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Re: banned from casino...advice on appeal?

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Originally Posted by PhuckingPhatPhreek View Post
Just walk into the poker room if you want to play. Probably, they won't even recognize you there.
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Originally Posted by Quadstriker View Post
Don't do this.

When you get disqualified at the final table of your tournament, it might sour your day.
Spending the night in jail would be far more sour:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Burly Samoan View Post
I was banned from the property of Tampa Hard Rock and all others. They did not give me a reason. They just told me to gtfo and I couldn't come back or I would be arrested. I asked if I could still play poker they said no.
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Old 12-30-2009, 07:28 PM   #39
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Re: banned from casino...advice on appeal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by callipygian View Post
If you're spreading 1:12 and not making a significant profit you've got some huge mistakes in your game. If you want longevity, you've got to keep your bet spread down - you're probably making a lot of basic strategy mistakes and the fact that you're not giving I18 numbers makes me suspicious that you don't know them all that well. Making a few small mistakes an hour is enough to erase your edge from counting.

Also, make sure your game is beatable. If it's 6D H17, you're going to need really good penetration. If you want to do this long-term, you're best off scouting out the dealers who give the best penetration and play exclusively with them - this will limit the length of your session (but increase your waiting time) and extend longevity.

If you're going to flat bet, I don't think you'll have any problems with security. When you're banned from the property permanently, you'll know it because they're legally required to read you laws and stuff. Your player's card is probably flagged so don't use that any more.

Post on blackjack forums for more advice. bj21.com or blackjackinfo.com both have good ones.
Maybe if I played for weeks, but I'm pretty sure it's possible to lose money in 4 hours of barely +EV play. I'm pretty sure I play perfect basic strategy for H17..and I don't know all 18 but the ones I do know I remember the numbers

Penetration was to at least one deck from six and sometimes less than one. I definitely am not perfect at counting the decks in the discard tray but I'm working on it
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Old 12-30-2009, 08:08 PM   #40
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Re: banned from casino...advice on appeal?

Sounds like a juicy blackjack game. You need to spread AT LEAST 1-12 in shoe games (I prefer much higher) and your ROR goes sky high if you spread any lower, as well as the fact that you will be barely beating the game. It's odd that you got banned, not backed off, but take it like a man and hit up some other joint for a while, then sneak in for a revenge session or two.
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Old 12-30-2009, 08:45 PM   #41
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Re: banned from casino...advice on appeal?

FYI for the OP and other 2 + 2 ers.
I am a former employee of the Seminloe Tribe and I am not a disgruntled former employee, quite the contrary, I enjoyed the 2 years I was Director of the Hollywood Hardrock poker room.
A. If you are lifetimed from any of the properties, you are lifetimed from all 7.

B. In Florida, as the OP is aware, you can only play BJ at the Tampa Hardrock or the Hollywood Hardrock unless you want to play on one of the cruise ships.

C. If you are lifetimed and go back and get arrested, you will probably do your time in the Tribal Police jail. Reservations are Sovereign nations and don't have to comply with most State laws.

D. No attorney will be able to get you reinstated if you are lifetimed.

E. If you are ever lifetimed, you would send a letter to the Seminole Tribe of Florida for reinstatement. It is not done at the property level.

Hope that helps you some
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Old 12-30-2009, 08:53 PM   #42
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Re: banned from casino...advice on appeal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Burly Samoan View Post
Penetration was to at least one deck from six and sometimes less than one.
This seems unreasonably deep. Most notches are set at 1.5-2 decks (66-75%) penetration, so if you're positive that you've got 1 deck cutoff (83%), you're sitting on a gold mine. Just to be clear, is this 6D 3:2 H17 LS DA2 DAS RSall?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Burly Samoan
I definitely am not perfect at counting the decks in the discard tray but I'm working on it
Move to unbalanced systems (KO, Red7) if you have problems with deck estimation.
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Old 12-30-2009, 09:08 PM   #43
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Re: banned from casino...advice on appeal?

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Originally Posted by callipygian View Post
This seems unreasonably deep. Most notches are set at 1.5-2 decks (66-75%) penetration, so if you're positive that you've got 1 deck cutoff (83%), you're sitting on a gold mine. Just to be clear, is this 6D 3:2 H17 LS DA2 DAS RSall?



Move to unbalanced systems (KO, Red7) if you have problems with deck estimation.
Yes it definitely went to 1 deck and sometimes lower. However there was no late surrender and you can't resplit Aces, but you can double any two and double after split.

And while I could get better at the deck estimation it's not my biggest weakness..I realy need to sit down with a deck and practice at home cause I was looking too zombielike studying the cards and not talking to others and I need it to be an afterthought.
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Old 12-30-2009, 09:11 PM   #44
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Re: banned from casino...advice on appeal?

go to beau rivage
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Old 12-30-2009, 10:04 PM   #45
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Re: banned from casino...advice on appeal?

so the banned you.
Just don't go to those locations, problem solved.
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Old 12-31-2009, 01:08 AM   #46
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Re: banned from casino...advice on appeal?

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Originally Posted by Yule View Post
A young reg at Turning Stone got into a shoving match with another player (no punches, but pushing physically) in the poker room and was given a lifetime ban.

A lawyer friend of his called the casino, asked what they wanted, and they said he could pay a $300 fine to the tribe.

He paid it, and got reinstated.

Someone really did not tell you this ???? Really ???
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