I'm still pretty new with only about 100 hours of live play in 2016.
So I'm playing 1/2 while the wsop circuit event is at my local casino. After the hand it felt a little sketchy but I feel it was 100% preventable on my part. I wanted to post to get opinions on it.

I'm sitting with $480 and look down at AKoff. I raise a few limpers to $16. 2 callers. Flop was K34 rainbow. checked to me, I bet ~$40. fold, then V on my immediate right check-raises to ~$110. This v had sat down relatively recently so no real reads on how gamblely he is.

I look over to my right to see how much he has behind. He parts his hands and I see about $75 in red chips. I decide that I'm willing to gii for $75 more and say "all-in".

At this point he moves his left arm and picks up a stack of black chips and starts shuffling them he has me covered. Apparently he came from a different table so instead of sitting down with $200 he had closer to $800.
He tanks for a few minutes, almost folds, then calls with AA. He holds. Oops.

So a couple of questions:
Should I ask the dealer how much a V has behind? Can the dealer always say or is it room specific?
Is this a common angleshoot or 100% my mistake, or both?

Belongs in live casino, but, yeah you got angled.

Don't know the exact ruling, but I'd call floor to make it known this guy is hiding big chips.

Had that happen before where a guy was hiding 2 $500 chips under $5. Called him out on it. Then so did the dealer.

Honestly, you should be more aware.

You should ask the dealer for a count of his stack in the future or to ask them to make it 100% visible.

Meh, not enough info to be sure. It's probably a bad gambler just not knowing too much like you. It's pretty rare for a reg to have under 200 in reds and then 5-6 blacks. I genuinely only see that when I see a gambler come from like baccarat.

It sucks, expensive lesson but just take a second to be confident how much your opponent has before any time you ever say "all in." The dealer won't tell you a number, but you must always be able to tell/have it in sight.

Max buy in?

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

$100min/$200max

Yes, it does belong in live casino poker.

It's unclear if he is 'hiding them' or they just were not visible to OP.
But either way, and effort generally needs to be made to make your largets chips visible.

You cannot ask a dealer for a chip count on a players stack. You are only entitled to the bets that you are facing, not money that he has not wagered yet. (Generally.)

Did that guy limp-overcall with aces?

lol right?

I knew enough to look over and see what he had behind. Since he was on my right his left arm blocked my view of his stack of big chips. How would I know there was a second stack of chips unless every time I have action I force the V to lift his arms completely off of the table? He did make a point of spreading his hands apart about a foot to show me the stack of reds...

I have no way of knowing if it was intentional and I guess it doesn't matter.

Poker lessons are expensive...

Next time just ask him if he has any big chips. If he answers no and he has them he's got a problem and if he doesn't answer then ask the dealer if he has big denomination chips that are out of sight.

Also, you are facing a $70 raise. You think he has $75 left.

Just slide out $150 without saying "All in".

Yeah, I believe that's the $480 lesson I learned. Hopefully once is enough

It's hard to give you an exact answer without more info. However you should always just assume everybody at the table is there to angle you and just protect yourself.

Not allowed in most rooms.

this is an angle IMO

Angle, but does anyone fold this anyway?

If you called the floor and said he was hiding the blacks, they might rule they don't play in the hand. Even if they don't, you've at least called out his behavior.

Sounds 100% like an angle to me. He wanted you to call or come over top for the visible reds. You played right into his plan. I always ask "can I see your stack or how much you playing" I do find more often than not when people offer to show you their stacks with actions like he displayed without you asking them, they almost always have a strong hand and want you to see their stack and call or shove.

I don't think players are entitled to an exact count of unwagered chips.

I believe this is the case also.

That. Without more detail I have to assume good faith. The floor should rule based on whether you could have reasonably seen that there were oversize chips. If they were buried in standard-height stacks and barely visible, they shouldn't play, regardless of intent.

True. (Although I've seen countless dealers/rooms give one anyway, but those are house rules.) However,

"Any player is entitled to a clear view of an opponent’s chips. Higher denomination chips should be easily visible."

RROP Procedures Paragraph 18

I suggest you literally ask for a "clear view." IMO an opponent stacking chips in 23 or 18 rather than round numbers like 20 or 25 is denying you a clear view, but it would take several stacks (or a high denom stack) for this to matter very much.

If the house rule is to give a precise count, 100% of the time when you ask for a view, they'll volunteer the count.

Also relevant:

"Because the amount of a wager at big-bet poker has such a wide range, a player who has taken action based on a gross misunderstanding of the amount wagered needs some protection. "

In this case you both took aggressive action and didn't understand the amount you were wagering, so the rule doesn't directly apply, but one can infer a principle that could apply. Your demeanor should absolutely be taken into account in a ruling.

http://www.pokercoach.us/robspkrrules4.htm



Many places, it would matter whether he was moving involuntarily (broken game/must move) or voluntarily. Rules vary but IMO, he should not be allowed to sit with more than the max if he moved voluntarily.

If it makes you happier, it's not really a $480 lesson because he wasn't a lock to win at the time you went all-in. There's a nonzero chance he might fold a better hand (he tanked!), that he might hold a worse hand, that you might draw out, or even that he might call with AQ or worse. Maybe a $250 lesson plus $230 of run-bad.

I think you might have a case if you asked to see his stack. But as long as you are just looking over to him, he can move one, two or no arms.

Now you can argue all chips have to be visible at all times to all players but that is difficult without disallowing players to have their arms on the table.

It took me a long time before I realized that this needed to be my motto, and has continued to be my motto, til this day.

Yeah pure angle then. If he legit spread his hands 12 inches and his blacks were not in sight then it's a pure angle. The ****ty part is you're probably still not entitled to anything back since you said "all in" and he did technically cover you. I guess technically you need to be 100% sure you know how much he's playing, but this seems wildly scummy to me.

You should ask the player how much he has. This is a classic angle, whether he meant it or not you learned the hard way. You should always know the stack sizes (roughly) of all of your opponents at all times, before a hand even starts. Those chips would have been visible at some point.

Hope the mods don't get mad as I know this isn't a strat forum but you raised pre, C-Bet big and got CR on this flop. This should be a fold. I would expect low sets not an overpair but what are you beating except a bluff?

Meh if the guy legit tanked than it was probably unintentional. Either way it doesn't matter. OP (and everyone) needs to learn how to protect himself.

Step 1 - when a new player arrives at the table always look to see how much they're playing. You should have a rough idea of what everyone at the table has without even looking. And periodically you should refresh that by looking around the table and getting rough counts. Specially look for big chips when you're doing this.

Step 2 - If you're contemplating a shove in a spot like this ask villain to lift his hands or ask him how much he's playing. I'll typically just motion lifting my arms in the air and villain will give a view. If the answer is surprising - it's only somewhat surprising that V would raise $70 with $75 behind - you can follow this with a "no big chip?" question.

If you'd done both you'd very likely notice that he had big chips when he sat, notice that he hadn't lost any huge hands and either seen the big chips or been surprised at the small amount behind. If you go through all that and you don't see the chips then you call the floor and tell them he was hiding big chips because it's definitely an angle at that point.

Too many people ITT are ignoring this. Whether or not it's an angle is irrelevant.

I agree with this. It would be worth a shot, but 1/2 games should not allow black to play anyway. Couldn't agree more with those saying learn to protect yourself always. Very important to always make sure.