Glad to see you in here and engaging! Hopefully the break has let us all move past the extremes of "rapini sux!" and passional defense.

I disagree that "roll-call" votes aren't appropriate. Poker players need to be rallied, and games sometimes have difficulty getting going. If I see that my favorite poker players are all going down, it might encourage me to go down. Or if I want to go down, I might want to try to get others to go with me.

This is done in B&Ms themselves, so it seems appropriate for B&M threads. The chatter that goes along with it is all part of maintaining that sense of community and camaraderie that is sometimes essential for certain games. It's the game around the game.

I can just announce a game and hope people show up. Or I can structure a game, recruit players, help them feel comfortable and happy talking with me, etc. For a professional, maintaining friendships and an active network with players is crucial.

What about the idea of letting "today's" chatter remain, then just moving it to a casino-specific off-topic thread once a week or so? That way the tone of the casino is left in-tact, and anybody looking can see what's up, but the official "record" of the thread is left clean.

Yeah, it's a bit of work, but so is building B&M games. This is such a poker-centric portion of the site, I support the idea of the Mod of it being a paid position.

I don't know how I feel about subforums. Compartmentalizing the forum might decrease traffic because readers might not review all the subforums. Therefore, posters who might otherwise contribute to a thread they see kinda by accident and think it looks interesting won't ever have the chance to see the thread if the thread becomes broken down too much.

A chat subforum might solve the issue of sifting out the off-topic stuff, but I sure as hell wouldn't ever look at that subforum, let alone moderate it. I think the better approach is to work toward finding a balance of serious stuff and "fun"/"play"/etc.

Thanks again for your suggestions/contributions. I greatly appreciate it.

Thanks very much.

However, I'm not looking to be merely better than the last guy. I want the time I spend on moderation to be as effective as possible in making the B&M forum experience as good as it can be for the majority of the readership. This thread hopefully can help with that goal.

I'm not really interested in hearing from posters who don't make positive contributions to the forum.

This is welcome news.

I wish there were a way to make a trusted regular a moderator with permissions for a particular thread. To have a moderator (or moderators) try to keep up with continuously revising OPs of these threads is insanity. I could make a joke here about how I think it would be awesome for mods to be paid (ya know, because I'm a mod and I happen to not hate money), but that's simply not the model we're working with here. If you want to discuss this issue with someone who might have the power to make a change w/r/t paying mods in areas of the forum that make money for 2+2, Bobo Fett and Mat Sklansky are probably the dudes you need to talk to.

I hope you don't take offense to this comment, but you used to be a pretty nasty troll. Nowadays I don't see you trolling anymore. Is it possible that the "inconsistent 'heavy handed' moderation" for your trolling could be part of the reason you are no longer a troll?

Tons of posters cry inconsistency when a mod takes action against them. It's so easy to point to a post or two that the mod didn't see (and therefore didn't take action against). It's unrealistic to believe that I could see every post that is made in the B&M Forum.

It's much more ridiculous to cry inconsistency and then say that you don't want to "rat out" another poster. Pick one or the other.

I love trip reports and the users who take the time to write them. I don't recall anyone ever saying that trip reports should be anywhere but front and center in the B&M Forum.

I'll give it a shot! pfap for mod!

I would think letting chatter fly and then just archiving it once a fortnight would be easier than combing through and trying to discern what's appropriate. One man's trash is another man's treasure. The "non-poker" chat can often be the glue that holds a game or a network together.

I DO like the idea of these master Casino Information threads. I think you've done a pretty great job so far trying to whip this forum into shape. Now we're cleaned up, and at a point where we can reconsider where we go from here.

How about this as a serviceable model:

Ask one or two of the trusted regulars in the casino to put together a comprehensive summary of the casino as it stands, which can be put into the main post. If the game situations at the casino change, the trusted regulars can flag the OP with the information that needs to be amended. Empower them. Delegate.

Once every week or two you scan the main page for the Casino threads, and put all of the posts more than a week old (aside from the OP) into "chat archive" threads specific to the casinos. That way the current conversations are left to thrive, and NEW readers can jump right into what's going on without being intimidated by 1000 posts. In the OP is a link to the locked archive thread so people can browse if they want. No real need to go deeper than the first couple of pages to see if you missed something, just wait for the thread to become active again. It IS a volunteer position, after all. And where the heck are all the other Mods? What are they doing? Why is it all on your shoulders?

That way we're all working together, the threads stay even cleaner, and the "off-topic" chatter that might not be about the game but that very probably serves the game is allowed to thrive. Everybody feels a sense of community, and we all get along.

Just an idea, but I think it's clean and logical and minimal effort and stress on your part. Everybody wins!

Thoughts?

Rapini's back!!!! Well, sort of.

Hope you had a good trip!

Awesome name IMO.

I'll be replying to those PMs this weekend (which includes Monday this weekend in the Great White North), I promise.

If there was a particular task or tasks that you wanted someone to help with, you could always try modding them with that specific mandate, and obviously they would need to be trusted to stick to that. But of course that wouldn't make a lot of sense if it was just for a single thread.

I guess what I'm saying is that in general, if you want to add a mod that was only tasked to do X, Y, and Z in this forum, and someone was agreeable to it, you could give it a try. But of course they would have to be a "full" moderator, have access to the mod forum, be able to ban, etc., etc., so they would still need to be passed by the admins and other mods.

That would be cool. I've thought about this before, and it's pretty staggering how these costs would add up in a hurry with 100+ mods, even if you paid them a small amount like $50 or $100 a month. And lets face it, $100 a month would be a pittance for the work that some of our busier mods (like Rapini) do, and insulting if it was to be considered payment for their time. To keep the cost reasonable for 2+2 would mean paying the mods so little it would be nothing more than an honorarium, and if you were to try to pay the mods decently for the time, you'd have to close the site down. If anything, my own self-interest would be to pay the mods, as probably 90+% of my modding here is completely unrelated to my sales job and is therefore unpaid, but I can't see how it could ever be made to work.

This all comes from my own reasoning and is not in any way meant to reflect 2+2's position on it. If anyone really wanted to make a proposal about this, it would be strictly Mat & Mason's call. But I can almost guarantee it wouldn't happen, especially in light of the current economy and the state of online poker.

Much like major sporting events that spend and sometimes make millions for different companies/organizations yet still need to use volunteers to keep them running (Olympics, golf, auto racing, and many, many others I'm sure), I think it's pretty hard to keep a major forum running without volunteer mods. Unless you went for a very loose moderation standard based pretty much on post reports alone, and just had one or two full-time people doing it - but I think the proposed idea of paying mods was to increase mods' presence, not lower it.

Wow, that turned into way more of an answer than I intended, but now that I typed it all, I'm going to post it, dammit!

I see where the disconnect is. It's not actually about "one lousy thread." Where do we draw the line? Like is a thread for restaurants in Tunica OK? How about a catchall for stuff in and around Foxwoods/Mohegan? Directions from NYC to AC? Hotels in Los Angeles? At some point, we're getting involved with Googletarding, threads that are going to have six or seven posts in them and then die, etc. Pretty unsavory stuff.

Does anyone who is suggesting that we move the AC About Town Thread back to B&M read the Travel Forum? Other than the kinds of threads where 2+2ers tell each other how good/bad a particular place is to live as an internet grinder, the threads in there are actually quite similar to the AC About Town Thread and definitely cover the same types of information. I'm not convinced that making a thread about an area that has casinos, like AC, Tunica, Los Angeles, etc., magically makes it B&M Forum material when there is another forum dedicated to that kind of information.

Oh man, what a friggin' disaster that was. Even though I might be the biggest proponent of having something like a "like" button, that implementation was absolutely terrible.

Why not have them in the casino threads?

"Hey, I want to go to Tunica to support the rebuilding after the flood. Where do you guys think would be a good place to stay? Recommend any restaurants? Let's get together at a sports bar to watch the game before heading out to the casinos!"

An issue that sticks with me is that the casino threads as they exist are downright unwieldy. I don't even want to touch 'em. 8100 posts about Foxwoods? Why do I even care about replies 1-8050?

But if I see a clean and easily accessible thread that has ONLY current conversation among the people who actually PLAY there, then it's a community, and I feel comfortable interacting with that community, even if the conversation has nothing to do with poker. It makes me more likely to play there. People play B&M poker for the social aspects.

I don't feel this can be overstated: maintaining a network and rallying poker players is VERY IMPORTANT, especially now that we have all these new players coming in who want to try new things. Let's welcome them with open arms, in a comfortable and safe environment!

I often state that the role of a winning player is to give his customers what they want. The customers WANT to chat and feel part of the club. That's one of the the hallmarks of B&M poker! It's very much on topic, it's just a few levels higher.

A poker game that only talks about poker is not a game that's going to get much action in the long run. Let people talk about other things, contained in the threads among those who play at the tables, periodically mass-archived. You don't even have to read the posts to archive 'em, just pick a date and do everything before it.

Let the casino regulars flag the OP with casino-specific information (making it more accessible and useful to everybody), and now you don't have to moderate the threads at all, except when someone flags a post. That seems pretty easy to me. What about this am I overlooking?

I just want to "like" this one again.

If we're going to have The Muck, how about The Toke Box? The Fannypack? The Cocaine & Jewelry Addiction?

As I said in the OP of this thread, that's the only topic that's not up for discussion in this thread. Once again, all the moderators agreed when we discussed it that no names should be allowed.

Sorry about the mix-up with MA poker. All threads on that issue should be in the Poker Legislation forum because it is not certain whether MA poker rooms are legal. B&M is for discussion of only LEGAL live poker venues. If you see any threads that discuss poker that is not strictly legal, please PM me next week and I'll move those threads over to PL.

The "first mistake" a user makes is almost never an infraction. Some examples of posts that might be an infraction the first time around are personal attack-style trolling, begging for stakes, and discussion of unlawful activities. Otherwise, I give a warning just as you said. All warnings and infractions are private.

That has not changed. Only discussion of legal live venues is allowed in B&M.

It seems like the consensus is a containment thread would be best. I'll run it by the other mods and if there's no objection I'll create one next week. Look for QuadsOverQuads's and Quadstriker's post counts to skyrocket, as well as a bunch of newbie trolls coming out of the woodwork to battle them on the issue.

Speaking of Quadstriker, his Breakroom thread has been awesome. I just read a good bit of what I missed in it over the past month. But I think that thread should be posts only by dealers and cardroom staff, with maybe the exception of respectful questions from other users.

While I was gone, someone told a funny story about a dealer who stopped dealing after his table chopped six hands in a row. After that post, a bunch of non-poker room staff posters came in and screamed about how inappropriate the dealer in the story's actions were. Obviously only QS can know for sure, but based on my discussion with him from before he started the thread, I think that he didn't want that kind of staff bashing "discussion" going on in the thread.

QS, can you weigh in on that? Others also should feel free to say whether they think negative commentary from non-staff users is appropriate in that thread.

Pfapfap and I have had thoughts along these same lines. We both think it would be great for the OP of casino-specific or region-specific threads to be maintained by either a trusted regular or small team of trusted regulars. That regular or team could submit an update to a mod every day/week/month/quarter/year/whatever and the mod could update the OP.

If we were going to do this though, we'd need more mods. So that's something to consider. What do others think?

TRs should almost always have their own threads, unless they're some sort of crappy 3-line post that says, "I ran so bad last night, AA < KK, JJ < AK, -$400. lulz." I love TRs and the posters who take the time to write them.

This is a big, important issue. There are many posters who would love to turn the casino-specific threads into chatrooms for regulars of those rooms. There are many posters who would love to keep all posts on-topic.

My personal bias in favor of the latter comes from my belief that the B&M Forum should be first and foremost an information resource. I think that people come to the B&M Forum for discussion on etiquette, rules, and legal live poker venues and they want to get the information they're looking for in an efficient manner.

The other side of the coin is people obviously want to feel like they're part of a community, talk to each other on a personal level, and joke around. That sort of conversation often strays from the discussion of strictly on-topic poker information.

[EDIT to add: There are some posters who post only information and there are some posters who post only community-type posts, whether that comes in the form of off-topic chatter, jokes, etc. I personally find the first kind of poster much more valuable to a forum like B&M and the second type of poster much more valuable in an off-topic forum.]

I think the best way to balance information and community is to allow in the casino-specific threads discussion that is tangentially related to poker or the venues. In other words, posts regarding meet-ups, brief trip reports, stories about other regulars, room rates, restaurants, etc., should all be allowed to enhance the sense of community.

On the other hand, I think that discussion of completely unrelated issues like movies, sports, personal life outside of poker, etc., should take place either in the low-content thread or in the many off-topic subforums that 2+2 offers.

That is, and always has been afaik, allowed. Check out all the posts in the Borgata and Foxwoods threads about restaurants, getting to the casino, room rates, alternative accommodations, etc.

Your idea is good in theory, but there's no practical way to implement it. Archiving chat posts would require someone to manually read the thread every week, exercise judgment to determine which posts have enough information to be kept in the main thread, and move the rest of the posts to the archive. That would require a very large team of moderators who have the desire to spend time creating these archives consistently on a volunteer basis.

I think the part you're overlooking is that 2+2 offers places where poker players can discuss all the off-topic issues you mentioned. Obviously a poker game where the players talk about nothing but poker likely would not have great action and might die out in the mid-term or long-term. I think that's why 2+2 has developed into a site that has forums for just about everything you can imagine. There's no need to attempt to make the B&M Forum a mini-2+2 on the basis that people like to chat about non-poker stuff in B&M casinos.

Can you elaborate a bit? I'm not sure why moving low-content posts to the low-content thread would make it mandatory reading.

Welcome back, Rapini!! You've been missed!!

I like pfapfap's idea of calling it "The muck" - but I'm not so sure that it's going to work. Seems like a great way to start fights in the thread, and cause hard feelings, since there will always be differing opinions between reasonable people as to what constitutes a good vs. bad post. A constructive post and a non-constructive one. Of course, with some posters not being reasonable to begin with, this problem will only be exacerbated.

Might work, might be a good idea. I'm just very leery of it.

Lee

"OP" does mean original post, correct? You really want to amend THAT in the casino threads? First of all, how many people go back and read it in the very long threads - like the Borgata thread, Foxwoods, Parx, etc.? Or even the shorter ones?

As for having individual mods for the various threads - isn't there enough complaining about inconsistency now? What happens when one such mod allows/disallows things in his/her thread that is the exact opposit of what will be allowed/disallowed in other threads?

As for "cleaning up" the threads every couple of weeks or so and then "archiving" the material thus removed - how does the person reading the thread know what is/isn't archived? How does the decision get made over what to archive, and what to leave - and, importantly, how is this done without making the thread read very strangely with huge gaps in the postings, and references to non-existant posts being prevalent?

An interesting idea, and maybe a way could be found to make it work - but I see it as being both very difficult and time consuming.

For one thing, a lot of older than 1 week posts should stay in the thread. Promotions going on. Regular games going on. It's sometimes nice to be able to see what the back issues of the game reports that Stan makes, etc. Plus, think of the readers who don't visit every day, but who only look in maybe once or twice a week. They're going to be lost in terms of knowing what's happening.

I've made trip reports in B&M without a problem. So have many others. Not sure where the critics are coming from on this issue.

Lee

Biggest 2 problems I can see with this is:

A. The frequency with which you self-ban yourself.

B. You've commented more than once that if given such powers, you'ld permaban yourself right after nuking Politics.

Ok, you'ld have to be an Admin for the latter - but you could still ban yourself, and then how would you do any modding?

Besides, you're an interesting critter to have around. I wouldn't want to see you leave.

Lee

I'm still not sure what you mean by "flag the OP", and similar thoughts. The actual OP on some of these threads may no longer be around - or at least, not around much. Might not still be playing at the casino in question. Might not be interested in that thread any more. After all, some of those threads were started years ago.

As for removing content, what happens when someone is asking for, say, restaurant information? They get it. A week or two later it is removed from the thread and someone else asks the same question. The answer isn't likely to have changed much, if at all, in such a short period of time. Or even over the course of a few months.

Same thing for transportation questions, entertainment questions, etc.

As for general chat - people are inevitably going to be making references to, and quoting from, chat that occured some time ago. Now there would be no easy way for the reader to go back and see what it is that is being mentioned. No way to get the background and context.

How about no threads on tipping, period? I like that!

Lee

Yikes! Seriously, why pander to those who want a tipping thread at all? It can't serve any usefull purpose, really. If folks really want to discuss tipping, then please let them put a thread like that up in NVG under "views".

And then the NVG mods can nuke it!

Lee

In this context, OP means Original Post. In other words, you want the first post in the thread about the casino to contain all the pertinent FAQ info about that casino, so that people new to the forums have a place they can go to get it (which isn't buried deep inside the thread somewhere). Since the actual poster might not be around any more to keep it up to date, trusted moderators could do it instead.

I think OP in this case stands for Original Post (as in the 1st post of the thread), not Original Poster (the one who made it). They mean make additions/changes to the OP, similar to what the mods do to the FAQ.

Oh come on, it'll be fun! And it will be an idiot magnet, so the idiots will have less time to post elsewhere in B&M.

I can see by responses that I've not been clear with my idea. Sorry about that. I feel like Lee and Rapini might be coming at this with "nope, can't work, let's shoot it all down." Lets try to approach this with, "Interesting idea, let's see if we can work together to figure out how it can work." I'll address your points and explain more what I mean, so in exchange please try to open your minds and at least work on a hypothetical with me. Remember, we can always come to a happy solution and then say "but we're not going to do it". So let's stop saying "no, can't work, shutting it down," and start saying "yes, but here's an issue that needs to be addressed, so here's another idea how we can work that in."

I'm proposing a new paradigm. So try to step back and not think of it in terms of the existing structure, but as a new way to approach it. Put away your "no buts" and bring out your "yes ands".

Do we really need an 8000-post Foxwoods thread? How is that helpful for anybody? Let's make it more useful for everybody!

• Each casino gets TWO threads. The "Main" thread and the locked "Archive" thread.
• The OP of each Main thread is the "FAQ" for that casino. Games spread, pertinent information, etc. Like All Vegas Poker, but for poker outside of Vegas, too. And maybe even a meaty second post with information on local restaurants, hotels, etc. These posts contain a link to the Archive thread.
• Once a month or so, everything else is moved to the same locked Archive thread. No sifting through to find the nuggets, just taking it all en masse and throwing it into a casino-specific Archive thread. Leave the previous week or two of conversation in there, but move everything else.
• A few established regulars from each casino are charged with helping keep things tidy. They're not Mods, but they can write up the original "FAQ" and then "report" the OP, and include the new information as the reason why. When the Mod goes to archive the thread, he can change the OP with the reported information. No reading of the thread required whatsoever. I can't imagine specific details about a casino change all that often anyway.

This way, the conversation is allowed to thrive, the threads aren't intimidatingly massive to new people (how can anybody find useful information among 8000 posts?), and the very important business of keeping the social atmosphere alive is allowed to happen.

Holy crap, no thanks! You want me to sift through 10,000 posts just to find out what restaurant I should eat at tonight?

With my proposal, we'd have a few casino regulars (NOT MODS) keeping tabs on things and consolidating all that information into a few posts, which will ALWAYS reside at the VERY TOP. So I go there for the information, then the next few dozen posts are CURRENT CHATTER. If I want to read those 10k posts, they'll always be there in the Archive thread.

Am I being more clear now? Sorry if I wasn't earlier.

This is not what I meant. I hope it's clearer now what I'm saying. See what I mean now?

I think the part you're overlooking is that the chat in casinos serves a different purpose. In fact, my proposal would keep the Casino-specific threads cleaner and with more immediately-accessible useful information. Isn't that the goal here? How do 10k posts achieve that goal?

Each casino is its own community, and that community serves the games in the casino. It's very much appropriate for a B&M-specific thread about the casino. I'm not sure what kind of OOT nightmare you're envisioning, but I think you're really missing the point because you keep coming back to that kind of thing. Many of your responses don't really address what I've said. It's like you're responding to what you assume I'm saying rather than what I'm actually saying. Please step back and consider it, at least enough to respond in a way that makes it appear as if you understand what I'm saying.

If the nature of the threads changes, then people will. These won't be very long threads, they'll be week-long threads, because the rest will be in the archive. People will know this, and will come to expect it. And if you're worried they won't, then the regular users who are tasked with "reporting" the OP so that it can get changed can ALSO post in the "chat" section of the thread that people should go up and read the OP because there's new information in there now.

I feel these massive threads are intimidating. If I'm going to Atlantic City, I'm not reading the Borgata thread. It's just too much. But if I know the Borgata thread is light and condensed and open for chatter, then I'm more likely to. And if I can do that, then I'm brought into the community, and I'll probably spend more time at the casino.

This is all in SERVICE of B&M Poker. We're in an industry that talks about different levels of thinking and psychology, so why doesn't that apply here too?

Not individual mods for various threads. We just "knight" various users to be in charge of letting us know when an OP needs to be changed. And EVERYTHING is allowed in the threads, with the "knights" flagging posts as needed when they're truly off the charts. All the information about the casino is right there in the OP, so nothing is tainted by allowing folks to talk about what movie they saw last night. That conversation will be archived within a fortnight anyway.

Everything is archived. The "main" threads have the pertinent information in the OP. The "archive" thread gets everything older than a couple of weeks, even if it has pertinent information. That information will always be there for people to see, and the "knights" will have "reported" the OP so that the mods can add the information to it.

And how often does casino information change anyway? Not too often. Is a 10,000 post casino thread useful for many people anyway, even if it's all information about the casino? Does it really matter if it's a 10,000 post main thread or a 20,000 post archive thread? Nobody is sifting through any information older than a few weeks anyway, and new potential players might not even try THAT with those behemoths.

Everything is archived, so it all stays in context.

Make more sense now?

Yes, those games and promotions are put in the "report" for the OP. There's a link to the Archive thread, where people can easily access the back issues if they so desire. Since the conversation is archived once a fortnight or so, those who read once or twice a week will still have instant access to the current conversation.

Everybody wins!

The "knights" of each thread will "report as spam" the original posts of the thread, and include in the "spam report" information that needs to be amended. Make sense now?

If it's permanent information that comes up a lot, then maybe Post #2 is "restaurant and hotel info". And maybe a week for archiving is too soon. So let's keep the previous months' worth of chatter in the thread.

The Original Post contains in big bold letters: LINK TO ARCHIVE THREAD. I can't imagine how it can be any easier.

RE: Tipping Containment. It's not pandering at all.

It's like when the Mods pretend like they want to talk to me, but really just get me to take it to PM so they can pat me on the head and say "there there". Keeps me from flaming up the forums, and it's put somewhere that's easily ignored by most everybody.

Exactly! Except not even trusted moderators. Just trusted "knights" who flag the post with the information for the moderator. I can't imagine this information will change too often, and the knights will be respectful and not flag it every other day.

I think in the long run this might even be LESS work for the moderators, and allow for MORE fun at the casinos, which is great for everybody!

The original intent really was for it to be just for staff shooting the bull with each other, but with this being a public forum, I didn't see it appropriate to say to people "hey you can't post here!" Personally I think it's cool and can stimulate good conversation when someone outside the industry shows up there and asks a reasonable, well thought out question (i.e. something that doesn't have to do with money or how dealers are disciplined for errors).

It's been an educational thread for me as well learning about how things are done in different parts of the country ("Hey guys, this is how we handle moving players in tournaments, how do you do it?")

It's really an eye roller when during the swapping of information or funny stories or whatever someone sees the need to pipe in with the "Wtf how can he do that? That dealer should be fired omg!" routine. Yeah guy. Good catch. We know what is appropriate behavior in our jobs, which is usually the reason the abnormal behavior can be seen as humorous. In no way is that a concession that poor dealer behavior towards customers or casino policies is acceptable. It's always a real buzzkill to the thread when the self-appointed dealer police show up. The thread would be better off without that sort of stuff. It would be a shame if the thread got to the point where someone has to think twice about telling a funny story about the dealer who snapped a player's chip in half simply to prohibit another round of "fire the dealer" posts.



I'm not sure that thread idea would work here either (despite the awesome name). We tried that sort of thing in OOT and it didn't last.

I promise you I am not interested in participating in what will surely become an unruly cesspool of a thread. I'm certain your "idiot magnet" theory is correct. It's just going to be one stiff's rant followed by one euro's "huh why is tip?" followed by another stiff's rant repeating for pages with zero discussion of pros and cons of the actual business model.

You have NO idea how much you have been missed. Welcome Back!