Hi there 2+2. I've been a lurker for quite a bit but now I just had to join and ask you guys an opinion for an incident that happened last night.

Hero has 9T

I'm playing at my local casino in a 5-10 game and the final board reads 578KK and villain checks to me one final time (he check-called me on flop and turn). At this point the pot is ~400€. I figure he has a draw, and 8, or maybe 99-TT type a hand and is willing to call 260€ or whatever a standard value bet would be. So I try to get him off by overbetting, and I put in a bet of 550€. He hems and haws a bit and clearly has a decision.

Now we have some history, and this dude is known to angleshoot every now and then. So I'm ready for it and when he takes the calling chips in this hand and makes a forward motion with bringing his hand with the chips forward and then taking it back without dropping it, I instantly go "I got it" and get ready to flip my cards. I look at him and he looks a bit baffled, and I go "you called, right?" and now he shoots his hand into the muck pretty fast (probably knows he angled and is afraid there might be a decision)

I dont like the dude at all, he is a scummy angleshooter and figure I try to angle him back and punish him for his antics.. So I call the floor and ask for a ruling. We explain what happened, with other people backing my story. We discuss in a heated manner back and forth, but in the end, after hearing everyones's story what happened the floor decides it's a call. I havent shown my hand before and after the ruling I turn my hand around, having T-high. Now the villain jumps up and says he had me beat, "go to the muck and see for yourselves" he says.. In my mind this is ridiculous to even consider since his cards are not clearly identifiable anymore.. The dealer takes the cards he believes to be his and flips over A8. After a very heated argument the second ruling is, which is just god awful bad, that he wins the pot with A8. Did I get what I deserved for angling him back, or was the floor ruling just worst ever?

wp, floor ruling is pure ****

Jesus. This tilts me on so many levels.

There is a certain Karma for you screwing around to the freaking point of getting the Floor involved in your annoying game. I honestly don't know who is the worst in this story: you, the Villain, or the Floor.

So, am I understanding this right?

A guy was trying to angle you into exposing your cards before he actually called, then you tried to angle him into thinking you thought he called when you knew he didn't. Then he mucked and you're the winner.

But then... You tried to call the floor and make villain pay off your bet without any cards? Then floor says that it's a call and gives villain two cards out of the muck that beat you and now you're the loser?

The only way this could be any better is if you both somehow lost the pot.

I would kick you both for the night and fire myself if I were the floor.

Floor ruling is atrocious since the hand's in the muck and the dealer's going on what he "believes" to be the right cards.

But seriously, you successfully got the villain, someone you have history against, to muck by using his own angle-shooting ways against him, taking advantage of the fact he's trying to angle you with the forward motion crap.

Why oh why did you have to go the extra mile to truly humiliate him by trying to get a floor ruling of "it's a call but the hand is mucked as well" - I won't go so far as to say you "deserve" the truly horrible floor ruling for having to get that extra amount of villain-soul-crushing humilliation, but I'd easily say it's your own damn fault. You put the guaranteed pot at risk by involving a 3rd party with authority - the ruling may be ridiculous, but floorman are human, it's not a guarantee they will always make 100% perfect rulings.

If soul-crushing the villain is that important, fine, waiting until after the pot was pushed to you, and then doing something like pretending to be a victim WITHOUT calling the floor, letting villain think he pulled a fast one and get his own enjoyment, and then showing the hand so that he goes from HA HA I AM AWESOME TO ZOMG WTF and making a snide comment accomplishes the same objective and never puts your victory of the pot at risk.

Essentially, you're like the basketball team that had an easy lay-up at the buzzer to win the game, blew it, and then in overtime got victimized by a horrible referee call to lose. Sure, the referee's call cost you the game, but all you had to do was make the lay-up and it never gets to that point. "Deserve" is a strong word, but "Your own fault" is definitely the case here.

You need to pay attention if you want to try this crap.

If you see the dealer bury his hand deep into the muck you can try to get the call money.

If you see the dealer place the cards on top of the muck or leave
the 2 cards sticking out the side of the muck just take the pot as is.

Well I think that there are so many mistakes in your story-- first that he tried to ANGLE you then you figured I will give him a taste of his own med--lol then he fires into the muck--- so his hand should be dead--- so last ruleing by the floor is horrible--- but now your mistakes--- maybe ANGLEING him back-- but that is a bit funny if he really is a bad apple in the local casino-- but then the biggest mistake SHOWING your hand his is DEAD in the muck you win a good pot-- and he is pissed--- muck your cards and tell him that you got him and laugh and say I only had 9T he may not believe you but I bet he doesnt screw with you but showing to rub it in WOW that was the biggest mistake I think.

The floor probably heard what happened, thought "hmm, I'll show this scumbag" and ruled it a call.

Then "hero" shows T9 high and floor realizes, "oh, he only wanted a call now that his opponent mucked. Hmm, he's a scumbag too." and decides scumbag #1 needs to have a hand if he's going to be forced to call.

Not saying the floor handled any of it well, but I like it.

OK, seems like most people think I got what I deserved. And I'm not proud about my antics either. I never ever start these things. I dont angleshoot people unless they are doing that as well, in which case I feel like I need to fight back. I did just that in this case and managed to win the pot. I got greedy and it backfired, oh well :/

Seems like people hate me for what I did, and I dont blame them. It was a douchebag move to try to hustle him for 550€ more, but believe you me, he has hustled people for so much more. In retrospect, I should not have done it.. and it was kind of a spur of the moment thing. I got kinda tilted for him trying once again to angle me and wanted to tear him a new one... But I ended up tearing one for myself. It's OK though. Just wanted to get an idea from 2+2. Seems like people hate angleshooters no matter what

There's nothing wrong with embarassing an angle-shooter. Using the angle-shoot's fake call motion against him to sell that you're really strong is a quality move.

And although I personally wouldn't rub it in this scum's face, I can certainly see the case for soul-crushing a jerk like this. The problem is involving the floor - it wastes people's time and also runs the risk of the floor making a ruling that isn't what you actually wanted to have be the rule, even if it's an incorrect one.

Go ahead and soul-crush him by letting him know that his "angle" actually backfired in his face, fine, but the way you did it, not so much. Just my 2 cents. But oh well, no one's perfect.

It is amusing that you re-angled the guy by saying "I got it". Then you called the floor over, hoping to make an extra 550 from a bad ruling. You got what you wanted and then as a bonus got a second bad ruling that cost you 1500.

It makes sense for the A8 to be his, why would he have angled a fake call with 10 high?

So your re-angle worked beautifully... you got him to muck the best hand... then you got a lil too creative/greedy!

Having said that.... you sir are my hero! Horrible ruling!

Technically, I believe OP's understanding of the rules is correct. If money over the line is a call and then the villain mucked his cards, it was a call and the villain killed his own hand. Our hero possessing the live hand should get the entire pot, including the call money. I'm not sure if the floor would make that live hand show or not; as long as he has the right number of cards, OP gets the 1500. To my mind, this is the perfect example of an angle; our hero uses his superior knowledge of the exact rules to extract the maximum from his villain and attempt to freeroll him for the calling money with the villain's hand dead. Karma or not, the ruling was a travesty. Now, if our OP embellished and the folded hand was across the line but clearly not mixed with the muck, the ruling of the floor might make sense.

Of course he is. But the point is, in this case, to get that final call bet to be shipped over, hero has to have the floor confirm the correct ruling.

Therefore you're depending on the floorman making the correct decision, which is not nearly as easy in the heat of the moment - you have villain probably quite animated and telling a story that probably is quite different - he's probably saying his cards are readily identifiable and he'd never muck if he was held to the call, etc.

I'm sure you could construct a probability distribution based on % floor rules in your favor (you win entire pot, including villain's river call), % floor rules you win pot, but no river call, and % call is binding, hand is given back to player, because I'm also quite sure that the floor's ruling was entirely random and based upon who yelled the most persuasively. Then maybe it was still a profitable decision to make, depending on probability of each outcome.

His hand was clearly in the muck which makes the second floor ruling insanely bad. I could somehow understand the ruling if the cards were over the line in the middle of the table, but not in muck yet, and clearly identifiable. But because his cards were in muck I decided to do this, since in my mind there was close to zero chance his hand can be brought back to life from muck. That being said, I do believe the A8 was his actual hand

Say anything about karma, I do believe that according to rules I should get the calling money as well since his hand was clearly dead. It's a dirty move for sure from my part, but I do feel like I was robbed. But it's fine, call it karma or whatever. I can live with it..

Just so you know, trying to make your opponents call stand in this spot is extremely scummy. I don't care what the rules say. I also don't care how villain has acted in the past. What are we, 12?

Oh I know. I'm the first one to admit my antics were scummy. Super scummy really. But that's not the point here.. I understand why people flame me and say stuff like "HAHA karma strikes back, you deserved it stupid donk" and it's fine. I'm just trying to understand the ruling and see what people think. Because I was dumbstruck when the ruling was made, I couldnt believe it.. Almost all the other players agreed with me (the ones not involved in the hand at all) that the ruling was awful. the only one defending him was villains semi-friends..

And if someone is a scumbag in general, always trying to find unfair edges, should we just suck it up and take it? Why is it so bad if I angle back an angleshooter? People slowroll men the master because he is said to be a scumbag.. And I see people saying "haha, he deserves it".

If by taking it, you mean being super vigilant about protecting your hand and making sure they complete their action, then yes. Responding in kind is not good for the your image nor is it good for the game in general.

You went from angleshooting to pure greed.

You could have made your point after the guy mucks and show your 10-high, but instead, you insisted on extending your greediness for additional money.

It's pretty amusing to see that you want the floor to rule his forward motion as a call, but at the same time, rule his hand dead. If I were around, I'll probably say hi to you in the garage and tell you exactly "what I think" about your action.

Your bluff "I got it" was great. Your second gambool on getting the floor over was stupid. You essentially bet E950 against E550 that the floor would agree with you and not retrieve the mucked cards. Horrible ruling by the floor but you got what you deserved for that angle shooting. You sir are living proof of the cliche that two wrongs don't make a right.

Uh, OK? Threatening with physical violence online is pretty lame by the way. Also I dont think you know the rules of poker too well if you dont understand why I think his hand should be dead. I agree I should have let it be after I successfully angled him back. It was a mistake from my part to get greedy, and I paid for it. This conversation has gotten a bit out of hand. In my OP I asked about the ruling and what people thought about it. I've never defended my antics, nor I ever will. It was a bad judgement from my part

I'm not going to flame the OP here, it's been done and even he admits he went too far.

Had the OP simply bluffed his way to winning the pot, I'd call that damn fine poker playing.

But he didn't...

What I am going to do is give the viewpoint as a floor (part time at least).

Floor gets called over and as described, I can see the "villains" move as being ruled a call. I have no problem with that. He was trying to get a look at the OP's hand without actually committing to the call.

OP says the other players hand was in the muck but was it buried or laying on top? Or maybe just touching the muck?

In fact, a hand that can be positively identified can be retrieved at management's discretion and ruled live.

Also, Rule One, And another rule that is available from RRoP

Sure seems to open more options up to the floor, doesn't it?

If I agree with the OP that the other player called, then the other player deserves some consideration as well. If he called, I'm looking for a way to let him compete for the pot, if possible and fair.

Clearly if the cards are NOT identifiable, he's out of luck. But considering the way this played out, a good dealer might keep his eyes on the cards that the other player threw towards the muck pile and leave them be instead of mucking them deep into the pile.

Why? Because it gives the floor more options and he lets the floor make the final decision.

In the best interest of the game means, IMO, making sure the best hand wins and those that angle shot are foiled.

Both players took different angle shots and the floor deflected each one.

In the end, the best hand won based on the information the floor had and how he interpreted that information. He considered the actions of both parties and very likely the record of each party.

I'm not so sure the floor did anything horribly wrong in this case after all.

I strongly disagree.

Dealers job is to take a folded hand and bury it deep in the muck.

exactly, after you muck your hand it should be completely dead and a good dealer should have it completely buried so the hand can't be retrieved. i completely disagree with unmucking a hand.

I bury them deep each time I get my hands on them but the fact is, this is a very unusual situation. I am just suggesting that the dealer may have realized the need to be flexible in this case.

Keep in mind, the player made a move that looked fishy, he acted like he was going to call then he mucked his hand. This is something the OP claims the other player has done several times before.

Sometimes, doing the right thing isn't always best.

Regardless of why the dealer knew which cards were the other player's, apparently he did.