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Final 2 tables MTT, one table is colluding Final 2 tables MTT, one table is colluding

04-15-2015 , 03:11 AM
My friend and I played an MTT a while back. We were fortunate enough to make the final two tables. He was playing at one table with 7 people total, and I was playing at the other table with 6 people total. 4 people at my table busted (including me), and the final 10 people chopped.

After the tournament my friend tells me that a conversation arose at the other table which went less like this, "Since everyone chops most of the time, lets just wait until the players at the other table bust." Afterwards everyone folded every single hand, and the big blind picked up the pot. I could not believe it so I asked another player and observer at the other table to confirm the story. Obviously, I was pissed and complained to my friend. He replies, "I was the short stack, and you would have done the same thing". Also, "its not like it was stated that everyone would fold every hand explicitly. It was a type of mutual understanding that everyone seemed to go along with."


Whether it was stated explicitly or not, I felt that it was a form of cheating. I complained to the tournament director, and he said there was nothing he could do after he made the payouts.

Am I overreacting or should this type of collusion been spotted and penalized.
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04-15-2015 , 06:29 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dog_Poker
a conversation arose at the other table which went less like this, "Since everyone chops most of the time, lets just wait until the players at the other table bust."
"its not like it was stated that everyone would fold every hand explicitly. It was a type of mutual understanding that everyone seemed to go along with."

Its not clear what happened because these two statements indicate different things.

If There was a conversation where the players discussed not playing against each while waiting to get to a chop ... then this is definately a problem

But if as the second statement suggests there was no agreement, its just that the players all just came up with the same strategy to reach a chop then thats just part of the game. Obviously not everything is black and white and there are statemehts and conversations which nay fall in the grey.
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04-15-2015 , 08:39 AM
I'm surprised no one at your table noticed this. Usually the tables are close to each other and at 2 tables left, I always peek at the other one to know how chop stacks look. It would be obvious to see this form of collusion and call it out right away or simply do the same thing at your table to combat their strategy.

Once the tournament ends, it's tough to do anything. You might have a case of you spoke up during the tournament.
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04-15-2015 , 09:04 AM
You really have to catch them in the act.

Also, this isn't the best strategy, I have a hard time seeing how you and the other guy at your table wouldn't have enough chips to screw over the other 7/demand a more favorable chop.
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04-15-2015 , 09:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dog_Poker

He was playing at one table with 7 people total, and I was playing at the other table with 6 people total. 4 people at my table busted (including me), and the final 10 people chopped.
You had a 5 way all-in and 4 players busted out at the same time?

Seriously?

Also, 7 + 6 - 4 = 9 not 10
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04-15-2015 , 09:59 AM
I wonder if the floor gave the table a warning, how he would go about enforcing it if the next few hands they still mucked and the blinds got a walk. How do you select whom to punish, if anyone? Does he look at each persons cards while the action is on them, to determine if the cards were bad enough to warrant a call or raise vs a fold? Threaten the whole table? With what? The blinds have to go to someone.

Seems like this would be complicated to handle in actual practice. Anyone ever dealt with this before, and if so what did you do? It reminds me of the unspoken check it down strategy when someone at final table is all in unless you have the nuts.
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04-15-2015 , 10:45 AM
You are not overreacting and the players agreeing to fold until they can can chop 10 ways are idiots. If this is a small stakes MTT that is a long term money losing strategy.
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04-15-2015 , 10:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by browser2920
I wonder if the floor gave the table a warning, how he would go about enforcing it if the next few hands they still mucked and the blinds got a walk. How do you select whom to punish, if anyone? Does he look at each persons cards while the action is on them, to determine if the cards were bad enough to warrant a call or raise vs a fold? Threaten the whole table? With what? The blinds have to go to someone.

Seems like this would be complicated to handle in actual practice. Anyone ever dealt with this before, and if so what did you do? It reminds me of the unspoken check it down strategy when someone at final table is all in unless you have the nuts.
announce there will be no chopping. ..
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04-15-2015 , 11:15 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AngusThermopyle
You had a 5 way all-in and 4 players busted out at the same time?

Seriously?

Also, 7 + 6 - 4 = 9 not 10
That's what I noticed. If story was true, when the first player for his table busted a player from the other table would/should have been moved. And again when the third player busted. Seven players wouldn't have remained seated toghether
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04-15-2015 , 11:16 AM
I think what Angus is getting at is that once you lost a player at your table the Floor should have moved a player from their table to your table. And that player would have outed their scheme immediately because he would no longer be at the "winning" table.

It is hard to believe that the Floor would have let your table continue with significantly fewer players than the other table [subtext: your story sounds more hypothetical than real].

If that conversation happened as you posted the dealer at the other table should have alerted the floor as to what was happening. IMO it is blatant collusion.

But once the scheme has succeeded why would the surviving two from your table agree to the chop? They should have had substantially more chips than most of the players at the other table [subtext: your story sounds more hypothetical than before or your cardroom has the best tournament fields ever]
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04-15-2015 , 12:30 PM
Sorry about the math, I was a bit tired when I wrote this. The friend of in my story actually suggested saying no chopping as well next time.
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04-15-2015 , 12:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dog_Poker
Sorry about the math, I was a bit tired when I wrote this. The friend of in my story actually suggested saying no chopping as well next time.
You still haven't explained how addressed the table balancing
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04-15-2015 , 04:02 PM
"Hey your story has an 800-pound gorilla and some bad math."
"Sorry about the math."

Okay but...about that gorilla.
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04-15-2015 , 04:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by browser2920
I wonder if the floor gave the table a warning, how he would go about enforcing it if the next few hands they still mucked and the blinds got a walk.
This is why you can't give a warning. The other players can collude implicitly until the cows come home. The guy who opened his fat mouth can say goodbye to his buyin, stack, and equity. No chances or sympathy.
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04-15-2015 , 04:29 PM
Certainly the table balancing issue would have come up. As soon as one 'colluder' moved tables don't you think he would've tried to start up the same effort at the 'new' table?

I love going to these places that chop all the time .. since I don't ... and none of them know how to play short-handed.

When I first started poker I didn't even know what they meant by a chop so I said 'no' with 5 to go and I was chip leader. So in the first hand after a break they all go all-in?? I ended up in 2nd but probably got more that way than chopping. So yes, they basically chopped 1st, 3rd to 5th!! GL
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04-15-2015 , 06:18 PM
This has been a problem at the WSOP at times, and one solution that's been discussed if the floor notices is to redraw the tables. The tables that have been colluding so that nobody gets knocked out has far fewer chips than the others so those players end up at a big disadvantage.
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04-15-2015 , 10:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by albedoa
"Hey your story has an 800-pound gorilla and some bad math."
"Sorry about the math."

Okay but...about that gorilla.
LOL. thanks.


I can see a table slowing down play, but that's why some MTTs go hand for hand at times.


Not sure how to prevent it at the bubble, but as people from the 'playing' table bust, players from the 'folding' table will get moved. Maybe if the 'folding' table was 6 handed and yours was 7 handed balancing wouldn't happen (FT 10 handed?).
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04-16-2015 , 12:17 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pig4bill
This has been a problem at the WSOP at times, and one solution that's been discussed if the floor notices is to redraw the tables. The tables that have been colluding so that nobody gets knocked out has far fewer chips than the others so those players end up at a big disadvantage.
Redrawing the tables is a bad policy. You actually create a situation wheer you may encourage players to misbehave just to force a redraw if they don;t like the table they are at
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04-16-2015 , 09:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrducks
Once the tournament ends, it's tough to do anything. You might have a case of you spoke up during the tournament.
What about the dealer at the table while this convo happened? The dealer should call the floor immediately and let them handle it. I would hope the floor would do something. At minimum something along the lines of
Quote:
Originally Posted by psandman
announce there will be no chopping. ..
I'd also give a penalty to the genius that came up with the idea.
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04-17-2015 , 03:57 AM
Sooooo.....about the gorilla?

This story def smells like BS
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