1. Simply touching the muck should have nothing to do with it and in good rooms it doesn't. At showdown such hands are alive, but...

2. You are confusion a hand released forward at showdown vs one released forward facing a bet or raise. Different rules apply for mucking in the former case vs folding in the latter. The general rule across the country is the hand is folded. Some rooms may return it live but that is not the floors only option.

Of course they can't do that...Are you serious right now? There is this thing called "substantial action." If there has been substantial action, which would be your example, no he can't get his cards back. In what world would any poker room allow what you just suggested?

Your own world, according to you:

Not a single reference to or exception for "substantial action", but even so, nobody should be expected to consider that the concept of "substantial action" exists in your world or expected to know what it means there. In your world, a fold is not a fold. We are limited only by our imaginations.

According to you, the place you work allows it...
You say here that it was not a dead hand. Did you not read the OP? In case you didn't, it said he threw his hand in which caused the next player to also fold AND THEN he grabbed his cards back and decided to call. So which is it? You said his hand isn't dead and then I asked if your room allowed that and you said no room would ever allow it. I am so confused RN.

Most likely d24o was unaware of the context of this thread and meant not inducing action behind but didn't state that qualification. We seem to all agree that any interpretation allowing a simulated fold followed by induced action followed by taking the cards back is just bizarre.

Why does it matter if action was induced. If someone gave an unequivocal indication of a fold, it is a fold. Action is binding, regardless of what the other players do.

Like I mentioned above, if the room treats face down, forward discarded cards as a fold(i.e. dealer mucks them), then it should be treated as a fold

I'm just trying to sort out the confusion above in the thread.

^^^^ I'm not going to explain the entirety of our rules. It's not worth my time. In short, in the original scenario of this thread, the player would be able to retrieve his cards and play them. In the final scenario that I responded to, where the "entire table folds" which I'm assuming is like 6-8 players, then no that player can't retrieve his cards.

I'm retiring from this thread b/c this is obviously going nowhere.

It's not clear you're responding to "This makes the other player in hand fold," and it's not clear why you'd draw a line somewhere between inducing one fold and inducing six. (Three? Four?)

Regardless this is clearly making you more upset than it would make most people so it's a solid decision not to hang around.

.

It’s hilarious he’s so shocked that we didn’t assume “a fold is not a fold until the dealer mucks it” to mean “or until literally any other poker action is made”. Like we’re supposed to just know that everything else in this room with an ass-backwards rule operates as you would expect

If only I could've retired after my 15th post ... back to the grind stone. GL

I still don't believe his room has a 'fold is not a fold until the dealer mucks' rule. That would be different than any room I have ever played in.

I think this was a classic case of a guy getting confused in his first post (probably thinking the an identifiable, unmucked hand is not dead at showdown situation), but then couldn't back down after coming out firing. D24O is probably retiring that account and will come back as someone new.

I would never play in a room that let me discard my cards forward, wait to see if anyone reacts, then take my cards back if I can do it before the dealer grabs them or the next guy reacts.

I think that just because d24o has said he is going to retire from this thread does not necessarily mean that he is going to retire from this thread...

I am adding the Horeshoe in Indiana to the list of casinos to avoid playing poker in. At the very least I don't think they are doing a very good job of educating their poker employees.

Awesome thread by the way. I am glad so many of us know-it-alls understand the difference between showdown and facing a bet.

For me it should be a fold unless there are extreme extenuating circumstances (like the player did not intend to throw the cards forward, or the player was always keeping his cards forward, etc.). The problem with letting substantial action into the conversation is that there may have been a reaction from the player betting that the player folding now reads. Or the player may just have turned his hand over to show a bluff. In any case throwing your cards forward when facing a bet should be considered the same as saying "fold".

From what I can see is this always ruled as a fold?