What's your bankroll?

Can you please explain what a "grind house" is? I've never heard the term.

When a poker player moves into a house with 8 strippers. Err, or it could be when 8 poker players move into a house with one stripper. Either way, lots of grinding going on in the house.

Pics of said grind house plz.

Lmfao!!

You can get two apartments in Vegas for that much.

Neither is the what you guys have been saying about your cost of living vs Vegas.

About 13k. I have time to increase this stoll. My life roll is separate and I would have about 4months of life expenses saved from that figure

I think here's the point we are all missing...Vegas guys chime in....

Is 2/5 in Vegas "really" dry? Is it really that tight with THAT MANY Pros?

And the biggest question of all...what if OP plays at night like RobFarha has been doing lately???.... and according to him (Rob), he's doing quite well too.

The reason I bring this up is because I asked a friend of mine who is one of the floor supervisors at the MGM Grand and that person said, "it's a no brainer because of all the conventions/tourists who come to town all year round!"

I asked that person, are you just speaking of MGM? And the answer was, "no". Their answer was based on, "think night time playing", 9pm and on...

Of course OP might not want to play those hours because maybe he wants to be up during the day.

Cost of living in Vegas: Good
Nightlife: Good (this one is not a priority for OP)
Fish: sounds like there's still quite a few going to Vegas

But one person's answer doesn't make it right...Vegas guys chime in.

I think the only other viable (reasonable) places to play (where it's juicy) would be South FL and CA (not LA necessarily; San Diego or where DGIharris lives, I believe northern CA???).

I would go with Vegas and add this. Flights to LA and Phoenix are cheap, like under $100. If you have a car may even be less. Move around.

If Vegas is dry and convention fish free fly to LA or Phoenix. There is some crazy loose action at Talking Stick and other cardrooms outside of Scottsdale, lots of money there.

13k bankroll with 4 months of living expenses is Pretty optimistic considering a buy-1n at 2/5 is $500.

yolo

Again, I have time to get a more comfy roll. I have a job that pays well until February

You want to play full-time, 100% committed? You need at least 40k + 10k for living expenses. I'd even go so far as to say 60k + 20k for 2/5. You need a LOT of cushion. Liquid cash is that cushion, because if you fall, you want a comfortable landing, not go splat on the ground.

Too conservative? Most certainly. The idea is to allow yourself to make as much as possible, without going broke. Having a big roll with additional money for expenses does exactly that. There would be little to no stress of losing streaks that can last 4, 5, 6 months.

Whatever you're doing, I'd keep doing it for another 2-3 years and penny-pinch as much as possible. This is business, so cut all BS expenses, until you're absolutely rollin' in it.

Personally, I think you should wait. You really want like a year's living expenses put aside. You sound a bit eager so I doubt you'll do that, but perhaps a few other tips I can give you that's kept me from going back to 9-5 for the past 12 years will be of use.

[I realize this is unsolicited, however I think you're a bit shallow on the funds and there's a lot of aspiring pros here, so I apologize for the hijack if you don't find it useful or if it comes off parental. Watching a lot of talented young guys come up and down over the years, though, these were their biggest leaks].

• Life leak #1: Do not live based on your daily results at the tables.

Get a rough estimate of what you feel your expectation is, and pay yourself an hourly wage. I have no idea what your money management is like, I'm sure it's good, but there's a world of difference when you're doing it professionally.

Managing upswings is actually more difficult for most pros than managing downswings. Anyone can see that their bottom line is getting narrower when they are continually getting their nuts kicked in and something has to change (e.g., lifestyle, stakes, etc.), but when you're crushing the world and the money is easy, many people spend, spend, spend and find themselves behind the 8-ball when regression toward the mean kicks in.

However, this is very easily avoided. I'll just quote a post I made on this last year at the end of this post (more for online, but easily modified for live), if anyone's interested.

• Life leak #2: Never loan professional poker players money.

This game is all about managing money, so if they come up short, then there's a glitch somewhere in their business plan. A glitch that will always have them broke/debt.

That's not a good person to lend to, and if it's a good friend, then you're only causing them more problems by not forcing them to address the root causes earlier, before they are so buried they stand no chance (Dustin Woolf is a good example, although he was more straight-up degen than anything else).

The point is it doesn't matter how good you are; if you're broke and need money, then you're ****ing up somewhere and you need to fix that instead of borrowing money. Telling them to get a job and play on the side to get back in the game full-time is the best way to ensure this person doesn't **** up in the future.

High stakes players (particularly) don't like to hear this when you tell them no and to get a job after they ask, "Well what am I supposed to do then?" (as if it's your fault their irresponsible ass is broke), but borrowing thousands to get into a game is just delaying the inevitable, exacerbating their situation and creating a new one for yourself. Don't do it.

Buy them groceries, pay a month's rent, whatever, but don't lend a stake. At least when you don't get paid back, you'll know your money went to good use at the time.

• Life leak #3: Actually work.

This is another reason why paying yourself an hourly is better than just blowing money when you've scored large; that is, you know well enough how much you really earned when you played a short session, regardless of what you leave with, and if you only give yourself access to your hourly, you won't be living above your actual means. If you want to make more, play more.

I've seen so many newbs make $10K in an hour and then they hit the bar and party for 4 days spending $2K and thinking they're still up $8K for the week. In reality, they've earned maybe $200 and are actually $1800 in the hole for four days when regression toward the mean comes knocking.

Having money, freedom and youth in an atmosphere that thrives on this can be distracting and worse. The casino is your workplace. Party somewhere else and realize you have work the next day.

• Life leak #4: Play with an edge, not with your ego.

This is all pretty self-evident but can become muddled when it's not recreation. I could go on with this one, but suffice it to say, extending sessions out when games turn bad or when your table image is completely shot in order to avoid booking a loss is losing grasp on what your objective is for sitting at the table.

Those guys that party after an unusual hot-streak at the beginning of a session are the same guys playing 20 hour sessions when they are stuck. When their table image is good and can get away with taking more than they typically could, they leave; when their table image is completely shot and inferior players have confidence to make plays they typically wouldn't, and are now playing them more correctly, they stay.

Poker doesn't owe you anything. If you remember that from the outset of your professional endeavors, you will likely never become one of those insufferable, self-absorbed, narcissistic douche-nozzles at the tables. That's a great way to stunt or even halt your growth as a professional player.



<money management post>

I run it like a business, because it is a business - it's a sole-proprietor business. I pay myself a wage despite my results at the tables. I pay myself what my overall expectation (EV) is in a game.

I'm not going to use my figures, but let's say you play $1/$2 NL and your established win rate is 6bb/100. This means that you earn $12 every 100 hands, or $12 / 100 = $0.12 per hand.

Your EV in the game is $0.12 per hand. If you played a 1247 hand session, then you earned, in EV, $149.64. It doesn't matter if you won $1500 or lost $1500 - those are deviations from the mean and have little to do with anything and nothing to do with your actual worth at the table.

This is why broke winning professional players are broke. They spend lavishly during upswings and come up short during downswings because they've never actually determined how much they truly are earning (long-term) at the tables and compensate themselves accordingly.

So what you do is decide what percentage of total expected profits (EV) will go toward business capital (depends on a few variables). Say you want to cut 20% to the business and keep 80% of your EV (wage).

Now that 12 cents per hand becomes 9.6 cents per hand; the other 2.4 cents go toward expanding the business (i.e., larger capital = better investment opportunities).

Let's say you played 8274 hands in a week:

8274 * $0.096 = $794.30 to you for your time at the tables
8274 * $0.024 = $198.58 to the business for financing your play (even though it is you staking yourself)

Keep separate business and personal accounts. The business account is not for you to touch and buy a $5,000 Rolex, for example. If you can't pay for that watch out of your own personal bank account, then put more hours in at the tables (see the Full Tilt debacle for what can happen when you commingle business capital with personal finances).

I suffered the longest break-even in my life a few years ago. I had 4 million hands in the bag before that and never had anything close to that stretch nor thought it was even possible. However, I was still paying myself my wage for my time at the tables - for months.

No one matches IRA contributions, no one pays 75-80% of health insurance premiums, no one splits tax liabilities, no one pays for sick days, and you don't have the option of collecting unemployment benefits during long downswings. As a professional player, you are both the employee and the business owner. As a business owner, you must pick up the slack in those areas and be able to compensate yourself accordingly.

Health insurance premiums, IRA's, etc. disbursements must still be paid out - just like it is at any other corporation that's suffering a downtrend - you must pay your workers for their time. Fortunately, you, as a responsible business owner, didn't overspend when times were good and can afford to keep greasing the wheels when times are tough.

As you can see, if you pay your business a suitable amount of your profits and never pay yourself above your expectation, then you can weather the swings when the time comes and continually expand the business (move up) at the same time.

</post>

I was planning on making a long post but z4 summed everything up.

You do not need 80k to play 2/5 for a living. I have no idea how someone could think that.

Life leak #2: Never loan anyone money.

fixed the post.

Post #89 is the best advice I've ever seen on this site, or any site for playing poker for a living.

The reason most (99%) people can't do it is the lack of discipline necessary to be successful.

Pretty sure I've said nothing about the cost of living in Vegas. YOU, on the other hand, seem to have plenty to say about things you have no firsthand knowledge about.

z4's post is A++, but it says nothing about how much you should put towards a game, or refute what I said.

To the nit who PM'd me this (or any other nits with a similar misunderstanding):


First of all, that part of my post was taken from a bankroll management post using arbitrary figures and was not directed to the OP at all, which I mentioned. Secondly, as also mentioned, that was for online poker and "could easily be modified (as you found out) for live".

I primarily play limit games for a living so I don't know for sure and used NL games in my examples since most readers play NL, but I don't think 6bb/100 for an online player at 200NL is abysmal. Probably not the cream of the crop, but far from abysmal.

Finally, to get the best estimate of how big of a roll he would need, we would need to get an idea of his stdv. Likely, as a live part-time player, he probably doesn't have enough time at the tables to determine optimal bankroll.

This is why I argue for being very conservative and overrolled initially.

Ryan...

Your thread has been officially DERAILED!!

LOL

Z4,

Thank you very much for taking the time writing such a well thought out post. I don't plan on moving to LV with my current roll. If it doesnt grow between the next few months, I will simply postpone. I copied, and printed it for a reference

I planned on mixing some 1/3 as well during the early stages. I also failed to mention that I will look to do a part time job as a personal trainer. Still though, I agree and especially like how detailed you are on safety and managing upswings.

The gamboolin landscape has changed dramatically in vegas over the past several years. There is a lot less $ changing hands. Not saying the games suk...in fact I think they are fine - just less action (read SIGNIFICANTLY). That being said they are better in other parts of our great nation by a very wide margin.

the reason I stay. My kid lives near by and I spend 12-15 days per month with her. I am unwilling to move elsewhere and lose that option.

I've lived in upstate NY, near AC, Vegas, Mississippi, and now in Maryland...

So here's the deal. Maryland is going to absolutely explode in the next two years. I truly think it will turn into the Poker capital of the US, given the proximity to DC, Philly, NY, and the easy accessibility with three airports nearby.

Starting out, COL is a little high near the cities, but if you are willing to be about 30 mins west of Balto, you can live pretty nice on the cheap. Plus you can take the occasional Charles Town day. There is such a wide swath of small to big games, from 1-2 up to 100-200.

Vegas would be choice number 2, based on sheer volume of games and soft target games. The Venetian is my favorite room in the country, and comps if you play all day are decent. Downside of Vegas includes crime, distractions, and getting sucked into the tourney circuit if you are trying to grind it out.

Mississippi is Dirt Cheap and you can choose between Tunica, Vicksburg, or Biloxi. Problem there is you will find yourself playing the same people every day.

NJ has good action, but I just plain old think MD is primed to be better with NJ offering no real advantage or upside over MD.

PM me if you have any questions.

tried to pm you. I can't. I got some questions for you cause like op I'm trying to find a place to live to grind