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weird situation: I see my opponent's hand weird situation: I see my opponent's hand

02-19-2015 , 01:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by browser2920
And what if the guy whose cards you saw had the nuts? Is it really fair to him to take away his chance to make money from the others because you happened to look at exactly the right time? It's not like he deliberately showed you his cards.
If you're going to be folding at your first opportunity anyway, you don't need to announce what you saw, because your knowledge won't be punishing someone else.
weird situation: I see my opponent's hand Quote
02-19-2015 , 01:59 PM
I'm going to admit that I've given up on 'the right thing to do' for a couple of reasons. First I'm like one of the only players at the table (chillrob is another) who even thinks about it, second few care or understand why I did it and third some ppl get really, really mad about it. If the guy got on me w/ the old 'how could you call w/ that?' I'd tell him that he showed me his hand and it's all on him.
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02-19-2015 , 02:09 PM
I'd call. He's probably going to muck and not show. You probably can get away without showing.

Honestly its fair game. If you expose your cards where your opponent can see them clearly, thats on you.
weird situation: I see my opponent's hand Quote
02-19-2015 , 02:48 PM
This actually happened to me before. I had 55 and the man to my left accidentally flashed his cards(he held JT). The flop came J 5 and some other low card(I forget what it was). Wahoo, I flopped me a set! He bet, everyone folded, and I didn't say a word. The turn was a T. Bet/call. River was another J.

Karma's a bitch!
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02-19-2015 , 02:53 PM
^ Huh? If everyone folded the flop, how did you see a turn and river? If you seriously did fold a set just because someone flashed you their cards, that is taking things way too far. You shouldn't have to punish yourself for someone else's mistake.

Edit: hmm, I guess you meant everyone else folded, but you called.
weird situation: I see my opponent's hand Quote
02-19-2015 , 03:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by chillrob
^ Huh? If everyone folded the flop, how did you see a turn and river? If you seriously did fold a set just because someone flashed you their cards, that is taking things way too far. You shouldn't have to punish yourself for someone else's mistake.

Edit: hmm, I guess you meant everyone else folded, but you called.
Yes, everyone folded *except* for me.

My plan was to punish him but alas the poker gods found a way to punish me anyway.
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02-19-2015 , 03:17 PM
As for the OP:

I raise the flop to $50(just as I normally would have done) and take it from there. And, keep in mind, there's still a third party involved so it's not as if this is a guarantee for me either.

As played, I'm calling the river while waiting for him to show or muck and then I'd turn my hand face up w/out saying a word until someone questions it. Then I would pretend that I misread my hand. I mean, if I'm going this far with him, there's no way I'm doing it just to see if I can actually hit my hand. And, I know that was your initial thought/plan OP, but once you take that information and chose not to speak up, I think you'd be a fool to fold the river. Imo, it's one or the other: speak up right away and allow him to bail, or remain quiet and take advantage of the situation on the flop or wherever you saw fit to.

Admittedly, I've come across this situation a bunch of times and I spoke up a bunch of times and I've also kept quiet a bunch of times. I based it on whether or not I liked the person enough to tell him. Usually, I spoke up, but can't lie and say that I always did.

Last edited by Rush17; 02-19-2015 at 03:23 PM.
weird situation: I see my opponent's hand Quote
02-19-2015 , 06:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by W0X0F
Oh! LOL!!

I read "2 4s" to mean "two four suited." Am I the only one who read it this way?
I also read it as the other player having a two and a four and that they were suited.
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02-19-2015 , 06:06 PM
I'd tell him I'm soul reading him for 2s or 4s. Amuse myself for awhile before calling.
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02-19-2015 , 07:40 PM
I guess you could shove river out of turn to be nice also
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02-19-2015 , 10:30 PM
1. Making it a rule that you have to announce cards you saw opens the door for angling.

2. Making it a rule that anyone has to do anything generally opens the door for angling.

If people seeing other people's cards is a common and frequent problem, it should be cut off at the source - enforce some sort of "pretend you're at the urinal and you will get stabbed in the neck if you look sideways and downward" rule.

If your neighbor is opening their cards in a way that you can see them, it's polite to ask them to stop it BEFORE you actually see them.

"Could you cover with your other hand? I don't want to see your cards, and you probably don't want me to see them either."

That all being said, when it does happen totally accidentally as it sometimes does, knowing you did the right thing in a general sense takes the pressure off what you should do in this specific case. The specific case is going to be rare, so you can choose to gallantly fold, you can exercise your full right to exploit, or you can try to predict what you would have done anyway. It's not a huge deal until there's some sort of systematic dickery.

Think of it this way: if you folded every time you flopped a royal flush, it would be a horrible mistake. And yet, it would barely affect your win rate, because you flop royal flushes so infrequently (most of us will never do it in a lifetime). How you act in this specific case is sort of up to you and your god.

I would fold the flop, but after the hand, let him know I only folded because I saw his hand and the should be more careful because I used up my chivalry quota for the day.
weird situation: I see my opponent's hand Quote
02-19-2015 , 10:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by daprodigy1993
im on the button with 78hh folded to the cut off who raises to 8 i call blinds call flop comes 565 2 hearts. blinds check the cut off bets 15. I turned my head to see how many chips he has, at the same time he was picking up his cards and i managed to see he has 2 4s. What is the correct thing to do in this spot?

At the time i wasnt sure so i just decided to call to see if i hit my hand, one of the blinds called too. Turn comes a 3 non heart and he decides to bet 30 i call again and the other blind folded. river comes a 6 and he insta shoves allin having me way covered. i have around 100 behind. What is the right thing to do in this spot?
OP I'm curious as to what you actually did, if you don't mind sharing
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02-19-2015 , 10:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by callipygian

If people seeing other people's cards is a common and frequent problem, it should be cut off at the source - enforce some sort of "pretend you're at the urinal and you will get stabbed in the neck if you look sideways and downward" rule.
Devil's Advocate: If you aren't gonna look at this person's cards as he is flashing them to the table, now you are at a disadvantage. And there are many people at a poker table that will take this information and keep it to themselves.


Quote:
Originally Posted by callipygian

The specific case is going to be rare, so you can choose to gallantly fold, you can exercise your full right to exploit, or you can try to predict what you would have done anyway. It's not a huge deal until there's some sort of systematic dickery.


I would fold the flop, but after the hand, let him know I only folded because I saw his hand and the should be more careful because I used up my chivalry quota for the day.
Would you really fold 78hh on a 655hh board? How often do you flop open ended straight flush draws?

I would almost understand your argument if you are calling with air, just because you saw the villains cards and think he can be bluffed out later. But even if you see villain's cards, are you really just going to fold the flop because you saw the villain's cards?
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02-19-2015 , 10:52 PM
if you folded river i feel sick for you

as played i raise flop, raise turn, call river
weird situation: I see my opponent's hand Quote
02-20-2015 , 01:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by callipygian
I don't want to see your cards, and you probably don't want me to see them either."
"So don't look."


weird situation: I see my opponent's hand Quote
02-20-2015 , 01:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rush17
This actually happened to me before. I had 55 and the man to my left accidentally flashed his cards(he held JT). The flop came J 5 and some other low card(I forget what it was). Wahoo, I flopped me a set! He bet, everyone folded, and I didn't say a word. The turn was a T. Bet/call. River was another J.

Karma's a bitch!
Mb wasn't all karma
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02-20-2015 , 01:56 AM
Firstly I think raising the flop and getting some serious value from his dead draw isn't a bad idea, mb he even ships.

Secondly, if you've got the acting skills, I think call the river then act shocked when you turn your cards over saying you thought you had pocket 8's. You take down the pot and put your opponent on life-tilt with that scenario

Also lol at going to a casino to take advantage of players ignorance and mistakes then telling them you can see their cards.
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02-20-2015 , 03:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeatTheRig
Firstly I think raising the flop and getting some serious value from his dead draw isn't a bad idea, mb he even ships.

Secondly, if you've got the acting skills, I think call the river then act shocked when you turn your cards over saying you thought you had pocket 8's. You take down the pot and put your opponent on life-tilt with that scenario

Also lol at going to a casino to take advantage of players ignorance and mistakes then telling them you can see their cards.
Ignore 1st sentance, thought it was 24s
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02-20-2015 , 04:55 AM
I can't believe how out of line I am with the general thinking in this thread. I actively try to look at my opponents hole cards. I look at it as a weakness in villain's game if they're flashing their hole cards. I don't think of it as any more unethical than bluffing a scare card on the river because I know someone will fold. They're both mistakes that villains make.

I look for weakness to exploit at the poker table. To me, that's what poker's all about. Flashing hole cards is a leak. Calling big river bets with 2nd pair is a leak. I'm sure I have leaks that other players exploit. They're not going to tell me about my mistakes. They're going to take advantage of them.

In my personal world, it's only unethical to do it to people who are physically incapable of covering their hole cards. If someone can't see well or is really old, I won't look and I'll tell them they're flashing their cards. If you're physically capable of looking at your cards without showing them to someone else and you don't do it, that's on you.
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02-20-2015 , 05:22 AM
I personally always say something to them once and make it clear that I can see their cards. I will never try to look even when someone is being stupid in the way they look at their cards but in certain seats I've found myself just looking down the table and someone doesn't protect them when they look and I accidentally see it. After I tell them once if I accidentally see them again I'm not going to keep repeating myself. I don't want to win the money that way, but accidents happen and if they want to be stupid and not protect their hand after I've already told them about it than that's their problem going forward. Some people have different views on how to handle this stuff and there's definitely merit to different things, but I think the people who don't say something once are doing something wrong.
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02-20-2015 , 06:07 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jesse123
I can't believe how out of line I am with the general thinking in this thread. I actively try to look at my opponents hole cards.
Yes, you are out of line with general poker ethics.

If you were playing online poker, would you concoct some sort of trojan that would let you attack someone else's computer and be able to see their hole cards, unless they had particularly good security programs and settings on their computer? What you do is the same thing.
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02-20-2015 , 01:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jesse123
I can't believe how out of line I am with the general thinking in this thread. I actively try to look at my opponents hole cards.
1. As chillrob pointed out, this is quite out of line with popularity. Not that that's the end of it, but you have to realize you're going to get a lot of **** - deserved or undeserved - for it.

2. Your position is more difficult to justify the more crowded the table is. It's not super hard to see someone's cards if you make it obvious you're trying. HU in seats 3 and 8 at an otherwise empty casino? EMFH. Seats 5 and 6 at a 10-handed table in a crowded, bustling room? Have a little respect.

3. Aside from the obvious "if you get caught people will hate you forever" downside, there's also the downside of how people react when they want to be absolutely certain nobody sees their hole cards - they build chip walls and put their cards to the right, wait until it's their turn to look, and put their head on the table to look at a tiny sliver of card. This super duper slows down the game and causes tons of confusion as their cards remain hidden from view when in a hand.

If you're a solidly winning player, it's generally to your net advantage to speed the game up as much as possible.
weird situation: I see my opponent's hand Quote
02-20-2015 , 03:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by chillrob
If you were playing online poker, would you concoct some sort of trojan that would let you attack someone else's computer and be able to see their hole cards, unless they had particularly good security programs and settings on their computer? What you do is the same thing.
LOL! That's not even remotely close to the same thing. If you want to use an online analogy, it would be a player typing into the text box what his hole cards were. I'm not doing anything to expose a player's hole cards. He's exposing them himself.

Your analogy would be more like marking the cards or setting up tiny secret cameras designed to look like the felt that electronically transmitted hole cards.

I'm trying to understand why anyone would consider it unethical, but your online analogy is ridiculous.


Quote:
Originally Posted by callipygian
1. As chillrob pointed out, this is quite out of line with popularity. Not that that's the end of it, but you have to realize you're going to get a lot of **** - deserved or undeserved - for it.

2. Your position is more difficult to justify the more crowded the table is. It's not super hard to see someone's cards if you make it obvious you're trying. HU in seats 3 and 8 at an otherwise empty casino? EMFH. Seats 5 and 6 at a 10-handed table in a crowded, bustling room? Have a little respect.

3. Aside from the obvious "if you get caught people will hate you forever" downside, there's also the downside of how people react when they want to be absolutely certain nobody sees their hole cards - they build chip walls and put their cards to the right, wait until it's their turn to look, and put their head on the table to look at a tiny sliver of card. This super duper slows down the game and causes tons of confusion as their cards remain hidden from view when in a hand.

If you're a solidly winning player, it's generally to your net advantage to speed the game up as much as possible.
1. I've been playing poker for 15 years and I've literally never heard one person say this is unethical.

2. It's not hard to see someone's hole cards? LOL! You can't see them at even the most crowded tables if you simply use your hands to block the players' views. With 99 out of 100 players, you can't see their hole cards at the most crowded tables even if you try. You can't see them unless the player is doing something very wrong.

3. People don't hate you forever. They blame themselves. They know it's their responsibility. As far as things that slow the game down, people overprotecting their hole cards is about #25 on the list. I had one person notice that I was seeing his cards. His reaction? "God, I'm an idiot" followed by using his hands to block the cards instead of just holding them up.
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02-20-2015 , 03:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeatTheRig

Also lol at going to a casino to take advantage of players ignorance and mistakes then telling them you can see their cards.
At least there's one person that sees it like I do.
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02-20-2015 , 03:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jesse123
At least there's one person that sees it like I do.
Yes, one person on the thread who agrees with you, yet you haven't heard an opposing opinion once in 10 years of playing live poker.

My guess is you haven't been asking. Next time you play live poker, go ahead and ask the table if anyone minds that you deliberately try to peek at others' hole cards; see what opinions you get.

It is nothing like someone typing their cards into an online poker chatbox; even assuming they were telling the truth, that wouldn't be unfair, because they deliberately did it, and everyone has access to the information.

Really the worst part of cheating in this way is not that it cheats the guy who isn't careful with his hole cards, but that it cheats everyone else in the hand, who don't have the same preivleged information you do. If you can't get this concept, you don't understand poker very well. But I'm guessing you do; you just don't mind cheating the entire table.
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