I don't see why a floor would or should warn someone for making a forward motion that does not cross the line in a room with a hard betting line.

im gonna make a poker room called " no rake land " where you are judged on intent and these bs angles cant happen

Absolutely. Always take a second to breathe and process what you see happening. All these mistakes would be avoided. Need to practice avoidance OP.

Clearly it is an angle being set up by the villain.

What happens if the villain has his chips set up in a triangle formation and pushes forward 6 stacks of red, but only the front stack crosses the line?

Can he pull back the other 5 stacks after the hero calls and say only the one stack crossed the line or is it considered that once one of the stacks crosses that all stacks are considered bet?

even if a casino has a certain rule, players which imitate actions that would be considered a different action in a different casino should be warned not to try to deceive players. I mean that has to fall under angling. just because a rule exists a certain way does not mean you can intentionally deceive players and abuse said rule to your advantage.

Villian have put in all 6 stacks as a bet(call) since some of the chips in the triangle have crossed the betting line.

I usually play at a poker room with betting lines. Some ppl including my self are moving chips behind the line to see if opponent want you to call or not. Nobody have ever said anything about angle shooting. It is like asking the villain "do you want me to call?" and see his reaction. Same thing.

I can not move chips around like that at tables without betting lines.

I do prefer tables without betting lines but for other reasons.

This is a bit different from the problem in the OP. What you describe--IMO--is not angle because you're looking for reads/reactions, and not trying to falsely induce an action. You're not faking a bet; you're acting like you're about to call. I have had this done to me lots by shifty old regs and it doesn't bother me one bit. The villain here was specifically trying to falsely induce an action, which is super scummy.

Actually he could be trying to get his opponent to expose his hand(thinking it is a call) before he acts which is equally as scummy.

Almost (actually I guess all) angles are by definition within the rules. That's what makes them angles instead of cheating. So there are situations that technically stay within the rules, but are considered angles and subject the instigator to getting banned. Another example, in our room, a fold or muck is defined as "cards released face down in a forward motion". That's it. If you toss your cards forward, face up, it's not a fold. Facing a river bet, a guy tanks, then says "I must be beat" and tosses his cards a little forward face up. The other player, unfamiliar with our rules, shows his bluff. Guy pulls cards back and calls.

He didn't violate any rules of play in the hand in our room. His action wasn't a fold, by definition. And he got to keep the pot. But then was told to leave. So angles don't break rules of play, but they violate poker room standards for fair play, and get punished accordingly.

edit: for those who don't play in a room with a hard betting line, I think this example will illustrate how hard wired the idea of betting beyond vs short of the line is to the regs/dealers there. Often a new person sitting in our 3 or 7 seats will have almost 6-9 inches of space between their cards and the line. So they will bet or call a bet, and place the correct amount forward a good 6 inches, but short of the line. You might think everyone knows that's intended to be a bet, but the action will stop and the dealer will ask him if that's a bet, and then tell him it must go beyond the line. Dealers will even pause if a guy doesn't post his blind beyond the line prior to the deal and have him put it over the line.

As I mentioned in another post, if you're a reg in that environment, it actually all goes smoothly as we all know the rules. It's the ****ing anglers that prey on the tourists (and we get a lot in Tampa--tourists, not anglers) that cause the problems because the tourists aren't aware of the rule, since as others have said, some places have lines on the felt, but aren't really hard betting lines like ours are.

Generally the line is the side of your cards facing the board.

I'm not taking the dealers word for it because he/she could be a pinhead.

Call for the Floor immediately, maybe those aren't the rules(who knows?) and calmly try to explain what happened before the dealer has a chance to interrupt, then when the Floor asks both the dealer and the player for their side, hopefully he can come to a clear decision; who knows, maybe the dealer was wrong, maybe this guy was warned before, maybe you'll get a surprise ruling in your favor. What do you have to lose?

Whatever happened in this hand is just the blip on the screen; the real picture here is the lesson that you take away from it. If you never act hastily like that again you'll be ahead of most.

This is not an angle as described. Villain "was clearly going all in" when OP jumped the gun. Evidently knowing that there was a hard betting line, and realizing that he hadn't yet crossed it, Villain took advantage of OP's mistake. Nothing unethical here. If he had stopped moving his chips before the call, that's a different story, but that is not what's described in the OP.

It's not my regular card room, everywhere else I play has the forward motion rule, even with betting lines.

I told the villain how his move was "dirty" multiple times while the dealer moved me the pot.

100% my mistake and if something like that where to ever happen again, I'm going to get a floor ruling.

His move wasnt dirty in a room with a hard betting line. He just took advantage of crucial information you unwittingly gave him prior to his call becoming official due to you not knowing the rules of where you were playing. Hopefully though you wont repeat this type of mistake again so there wont be a need to call the floor. It's a good rule to try to never put yourself in a situation where a floor has to make a decision, as there is no guarantee they will make the correct ruling. i've often seen different floors in our room give different answers to the same rules question from different dealers.

Just FYI, there's actualy an angle that I've seen done that is the exact reverse of your situation that you need to guard against. Let's say a possible flush hits the board on the river. Villain has nothing but bluffs and bets big. You have a straight and tank about the decision. Finally you decide to call, and stack your call chips, and position your hands as if you are about to push them forward.

At that moment, villain says "flush" so you stop, dont push chips forward (or in a room with a hard line, dont cross the line) and reconsider. While thinking, villain says "oops, sorry, I thought you called". You then fold. He doesnt show, and takes pot. He's not technically guilty of misdeclaring his hand since you werent at showdown.

It's a dirty world out there. You always have to be on guard.

And you are smug and happy that you saved your call because you took full advantage of your opponent's "mistake".

A good percentage of angles work because of the greed of the "mark".

FLOOR!!! Why did you snap-call OP?

It doesn't matter if there's a betting line or not.

Who the hell takes the time to stack their chips and push all of them 3 inches forward?

I would have fought it's going to be WW3. Pay up or I want the poker manager.

I understand your point about angles, but dont think that taking advantage of information mistakenly exposed is necessarily due to greed. For example, let's say you are planning to call a turn and river bet by villain. So v bets turn, and you call. V is confused, and thinks it's the river and tables his hand. Oops. So v bets river, and you fold, wheras if he hadnt made the mistake, you would have called his river bet. I see nothing greedy about that. Sometimes making a mistake comes with a cost.

I don't necessarily disagree with you, but it's strange that we are saying it's not a dirty move because of the hard betting line. An angle is by definition within the rules.

The existence of a hard betting line should increase our suspicion that the move was an angle. Without a rule to angle, the angle isn't possible.

Of course the hard betting line introduces other potential angles and opens up the game to bad calls by the floor.

The issue is never the betting methodology, it's the players looking for an edge.

The casinos and card rooms need to deal with angle-shooting much more harshly than they typically do.

Record the incident and the player and then check to see if the player is a previous offender.

Let the shady people know the game will not be played the way over the rules and when a player breaks the rule, days ban.. weeks ban... lifetime ban...

I guess it would be WW3 then. Is a betting line only a betting line sometimes?

You say it's not dirty, then go on to define a dirty play.

I don't think so, but maybe I didn't word it best. I think there are three ways this moving chips towards a betting line could have gone down, and while all technically the same, some would be viewed as normal play in a room with a hard betting line and one would be looked at as an angle. And to clarify, when I say hard betting line, I mean that there is absolutely no forward motion component to whether something is a bet or not. Either it crosses the line or it doesnt.

In case #1, a guy counts out a bet, positions his chips forward of his stack, but short of the betting line, then looks at the opponent to try and get a read. I would say this is similar to a guy who counts out a call, puts it in his hand, but never moves his hand forward in a room with forward motion. He's trying to get a read by acting like he is about to call, but the attempt is sort of half hearted in terms of trying to deceive the opponent into thinking he actually did call. He's signalling a possible intent to call, to see if that gets a reaction from the opponent, in terms of a read. Where I play, no one considers this an angle; just a normal part of play.

In case #2, the villain is actually trying to simulate calling and hoping to get the opponent to show his cards, rather than get a read like a facial expression. Usually the move of the chips is more forceful, and goes up to just a hair width of the betting line, so close that from the other end of the table, the opponent may not even be sure if the chips crossed the line or not. The guy may make hand gestures towards the opponent as if to indicate "well, I called, what do you have" or say something like "I guess I'm beat" or may even table his cards, hoping the opponent shows his. then if beat, the guy will claim his chips never crossed the line and say he didn't call. If he wins, usually he has to say nothing, and just act like of course he called. Everyone considers this an angle.

In case #3, the guy fully intends to call, and starts to move his chips towards the line. But the opponent prematurely acts and shows his cards prior to the chips crossing the line, and the guy sees he lost, and stops his chips from crossing the line. In this case, the guy had no intent to deceive, but the opponent, by prematurely showing his cards, presents the guy with the opportunity to change his mind and not actually call. No one considers this a dirty play. They just think the opponent screwed up and showed his cards prematurely. Sort of similar, but not exactly as if you had made up your mind to call, and were about to verbally say call, but then right before the word got out of your mouth, the opponent shows his cards, so you stop yourself and dont' say call, but fold instead. Everyone knows he was going to call, but the opponent lets him off the hook by prematurely showing. No one feels this is dirty; it's just a lesson learned by the opponent about waiting for someone to actually call before showing cards.

So there's way more detail than anyone wanted on life in a room with a hard betting line! Sometimes very similar looking actions have very different meaning. I guess when you live with a hard betting line, nuances become more obvious than just simply "were the chips moving forward or not". Sort of like Eskimos having many different words for snow.

It doesn't matter. Lets pretend I'm the villain for a second. If I wasn't going to call your all in, would I have stack all my chips up in ONE BIG STACK/S and push them forward?

Inside my head, as the villain, I'm obviously trying to get a read on you but since you snap-called, I decided to check.

OP should have called the floor/poker manager. He would have won the case easily imo.

Floor: What's going on here?

Dealer: Blah blah

Villain: I never crossed the betting line, I just did this.. blah blah

Floor: So why did you decide to stack all your chips up in one big stack/s and pushed them all forward like you and the dealer described if you weren't going to all-in?

Villain: Um................................................ ............... Shut up floor, I didn't cross the betting line OK!!!!!

Case closed! Villain pays up or get some kind of penalty for being an angler.

The way OP describes it sounds like #2 is most likely.