I'm sure this scenario has been discussed a million times, if anyone has a keyword for me to search I'd be interested in reading other threads.

Live 2-5. I played the hand perfectly, trapped villain the whole way with the nuts. I checked the river to the villain and he does the all in move where he takes his whole stack and shoves it forward a good 3 inches.


I noobed it up big time, and snap announced call.

He hears my call, looks at me, pulls his stack back and announces "check"

He was clearly going all in, I just jumped the gun on my call.

I asked the dealer, and he said the chips didn't cross the line, so his check stands.

Lesson learned for me. Anything like this ever happen to you guys, or thoughts on the dealers ruling ?

Not sure if it's been discussed that often, because it's a pretty clear situation. If there's a line, no verbal all-in and no chip crossed the line there's not much to discuss. The line is there with a reason. So ruling is fine imo.

Have seen situations where an ambiguous verbal action leading the other player to announce a call caused discussion, but not when chips were moved behind the line.

You realized you cost yourself by jumping the gun. It's a lesson everyone playing live learns at some point. Always wait until the dealer announces the action before revealing your response. This will both save you from interrupting the honest guy who was in the process of betting, but had not yet crossed the point of no return, but more importantly protect you from angle shooters.

Never "snap" anything in live poker. Look at most of the threads here about angles or mistakes, and the word snap appears in most. Snap-called; snap-showed my cards; snap-raised; snap-shoved, etc etc. dont snap anything, and you'll never have to go "oh, snap!" when you screw up.

Believe it or not, the bolded isn't always the case. There are some rooms that have a line that is called merely a "courtesy line" in those rooms' rules. What that usually means is that the line is there to provide guidance to the players about the area within which they should place their bets so that the dealer can run the game efficiently.

To the extent that the original post took place in a room where the line is an actual "betting line"--it seems like it was from what the dealer said--as opposed to a courtesy line, I agree with your post. Browser's point of "never 'snap' anything" is also important and well-written.

This is totally ridiculous. Even if the line is generally considered an action line, what else could it mean when villain moves several stacks of chips 3 inches forward? If he claims it wasn't a bet, he was clearly angling. Anyone suggesting this could be the move an "honest guy" is nuts. Tell him to pay up or be banned from the room forever. Any other ruling and the floor/room is actively supporting cheating and should be outed here.

It looks like OP took dealer's word; he should have called for a floor's ruling.

I play where there is a hard. Betting line rule, and people move bets forward short of the line all the time. But it's so common that no one thinks it's an angle. It's more alomg the line of someone counting out a call, and holding the chips in his hand, pausing one last time before making the final decision. So often, someone will position his chips short of the line and think some more. No one has a problem with that.

OTOH, we've Had angle shooters facing a bet, move their chips short of the line quickly, and then expose therir hand, without any verbal call, hoping to angle the other guy to show his hand. If he is better, he pushes chips across line; if beat, he claims he never called. i've seen those types removed immediately for angle shooting.

But certainly not everyone putting chips short of the line is angle shooting. It's just a normal part of play with a hard betting line.

I'm in the same camp as chillrob. I make him bet those chips because I don't see what else that move (sliding his stack 3 inches forward) could be. But, as always, house rules apply, and this place might have a hard betting line, where other places have a "courtesy" line. Know the rules of where you are playing and just have the patience to wait until the opponent completes his action.

Always call for a floor ruling on something like this. It doesn't say in the OP but I'll assume this is a normal B&M cardroom. If so, the dealer is supposed to enforce the rules, but not make rulings. Always call for a decision because the floor might rule in your favor, especially if he thinks the guy is angling.

Is the line enforced in the room you are playing in?

This is probably the most important rule to know when you sit down in a new/any room. If you know the rule, you should never have this problem. Angle or not.

So, in this room, or one with a similar rule, what if villain moved his chips 3 inches forward, hero said "call", and _villain_ had the nuts? Villain pushes the chips the rest of the way over the line, shows his hand, then hero says "fold"? That should be perfectly legit, right?? There was no bet before the chips crossed the line, so it is impossible for hero to call, and he should be able to do whatever he wants after the bet is made.

Makes sense to me, but I'm guessing this would not fly, which makes villain's move a total freeroll angle. I am curious about this though.

Also, someone above said when a caller pushes chips forward (but not across the line) and shows his hand, this is considered an angle and is punished. Why would that be? I don't see how that is any different than the situation represented in the OP.

This is why hard betting lines are a bad idea.

If I'm in a new room and see a line on the table I always ask if it is enforced.

Bad idea because ppl don't pay attention and act out of turn? They're great because it avoids discussion. Over the line = action made. Not over the line = no action.

How many inches did the stack had to move if there wasn't a hard betting line? Always leaves way more room for discussion.

I dont think there is anything inherently wrong with a hard betting line vs the other mechanisms. It simply takes the forward motion rule and defines how far forward does forward motion have to go to become a bet. I've read other posts that describe situations where someome moves a stack forward of his cards to cut out some chips, and gets held to the whole stack playing because it all moved forward. If you say any forward motion is a bet, that causes problems as well as an unsuspecting player moves chips around. So you have to somehow define when movement turns into a bet, and I happen to like having a clear line on the table vs something like 3 inches because then what happens if someone says it was 2 vs 3 inches?

IMO angleshoots can occur however you design the definition of a bet, because it's not the rule itself that creates the angle, it's the fact that a visitor may not know the local rule, and so acts according to rules in his home room, that dont apply here. As lomg as rooms have differnt definitions of action, there will always be angles.

I've played in a room where exposing your hand facing a bet will be ruled as a fold.

I usually point at the bet and ask the dealer "what's that?!?" unless I clearly head the words "all in" or I see the dealer push him an allin button.

Apparently not.

Nobody ITT claimed that the dealer made an error with his ruling if the line in question was a hard betting line. PPL might not agree with the concept of a a hard betting line, but that's obviously not the type of discussion I was referring to.

We don't really know if the dealer made a mistake or not because we don't know the house rules. But I'm comfortable assuming the dealer usually knows the room rules and explained it properly. OP still should have called the floor.

The hard betting line is fine for regs playing everyday but opens the door for visitors to get angled. Pushing chips forward is going to be interpreted as a bet by those unfamiliar with the rule. And in the OP, it appears to have been done intentionally to be deceptive. Hence, the discussion.

i would probably take my cards and act like i'm gonna muck while double confirming if he's all in. and he probably will say yes after seeing u are going to muck. then u can happily say call and enjoy his tilt face over his failed angling.

OP I think you should have called the floor. Here's why:

-Even if this is the house rule and you got conned, floor rulings aren't always consistent and you may have gotten a favorable ruling. I am OK with this because he was angling.

-I wouldn't assume the dealer knows every detail of the house rules, even if they are a good dealer. Even with a line on the table, some places have a "forward motion" rule.

-This guy may have been warned previously and this could have been the straw that broke the camel's back, giving you a favorable ruling.

When in doubt, for any decent amount of money, call the floor.

Sure, if you want to look like a fool and a bad loser. I've been a regular in casino's with a hard betting line and it's a very simple rule. Unimaginable any floor would rule chips being betted because of a motion clearly behind the line.

GuySmiley how many people have to tell you you're wrong before you stop posting?

So you're telling me it's possible that a floor in a pokerroom with a hard betting line rules that a bet was made when moving chips behind the line? Have you seen it happen ever?

The way an angle situation regarding our hard betting line is handled is like this: if the chips didnt cross the line, its not a bet. Period. No forward motion exception comes into play. That's the whole point of having a hard betting line in the first place. If forward motion were sometimes ruled a bet and sometimes not, then you dont actually have a hard betting line.

So what the floors do is rule that its not a bet; but then tell the angleshooter that angleshooters arent welcome, and kicks them out, or at least warns them that they will get kicked out if they try it again. But they dont invalidate thr hard betting line in order to punish the angle shooter. Rather, they enforce the rule, and then punish separately for being an angle shooter.

even if they don't rule in ur favor which they probably won't (if the rules are as the dealer stated and this guy hasn't been warned b4) it will help w/ this guy in the future whether it will be a warning/banning/whatever for angling. Obviously forward motion rules are still known about by the players since they are used at multiple casinos so trying to get people to react to a rule from a different casino and then get a favorable ruling has to be at least worth warnings/bans even if they cannot bind the person to that.

It's a very simple rule, IF it's the rule. Where I play, there is a line but there is a forward motion rule, and I have seen rulings go either way because that's how it goes in poker rooms. Also, rules can change from year to year, such as the relatively recent "last aggressor" rule change for the order of who should show first at showdown on a checked river at Borgata.

You are assuming the dealer is correct. You don't know where OP plays so you don't know if this is the rule there. Nor does OP, and nor do I, and POSSIBLY nor does the dealer. My point is that if you don't know, and you were just angled, you have nothing to lose by calling the floor, and you do not "look like a fool" doing so. Also, I, personally, would look like a fool for a nice sized pot. I also believe looking like a fool at the table can be very +EV.

Have you never witnessed a dealer being incorrect about a rule? I have a few times, and I play less than most people here.