Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

[QuadsOverQuads]

Originally Posted by foxtrot uniform

Neither position has the clear moral high ground here.

Your entire post reads like a lawyer trying to convince a jury to evade their own common sense.

"no clear moral high ground"
"not ethically required"
False equivalence after false equivalence.
blah blah blah.

When you knowingly employ people to perform labor for you, knowing that those people work for tips, and, in the course of performing their job for you, they provide you with good service, as per their half of the arrangement, you should also honor *your* half of the arrangement and pay them for the services you have knowingly and voluntarily used.

There is absolutely no moral equivalence between (1) paying for the services you use and (2) getting someone to perform labor for you and then walking out without paying the check.


q/q

[2OutsNoProb]

If > 50% of players stopped tipping, so would i. As it is, i'm glad the guy tipping redbirds covers for me tipping $1 from a $300 pot.

In a handful of days, you and the rest of the 50% would lose it all back anyway, as rakes would rise heavily to compensate the dealers, who clearly wouldn't be interested in having their salaries drastically reduced.

I guess people on m end get satisfaction out of enjoying ourselves and making others feel better without constantly worrying about winrates. $1 on $300 in 1/2 NL wouldn't make me feel good about myself.

Do you guys follow the same principles when you're out at the bar, restaurant, hair cut place, etc etc etc? Keep in mind there that you're in real life, not on 2p2, and you can't cite winrates as an excuse, but you would come off poorly socially and have problems with service. It'd be pretty low in the US to get a bill at a restaurant for $147 and leave $3 because you have some pre-conceived idea about the custom stemming from a poker table.

[2OutsNoProb]

I wish that some convention would develop in split-pot games with respect to tipping. A lot of times, you just win your money back, especially in stud hi/lo where it is heads-up on third street and most of the antes go toward the rake.

I don't know much about Stud Hi Lo. As far as Omaha Hi Lo, pots that get halved or quartered and lead to bad-tipping situations are very often the result of poor play by people who have already put themselves in a -EV situation by their very play of the hand. Not really the dealer's fault when you go to war HU with nothing but a naked low draw and a pot full of your own money

[LiveActionPro]

Originally Posted by deucesevenoffsuit

Over the past two years I have played poker at least 3 times a week in various rooms around the country, and I've come to the conclusion that tipping should be not only eliminated, but prohibited, and that dealers should be salaried employees. This would require an increased rake, but would result in more overall integrity in the game, and probably a lower cost to players, especially winning players.

Dealers are the officials controlling each hand. They are responsible for overseeing the game and making sure players act appropriately. But because they rely on players to pay their salary, they have an incentive not to irritate them or make any waves. Players, either out of ignorance or inconsiderateness, often act inappropriately, and most dealers are often loath to call them on it for fear that it will affect their tips if they irritate the players. Imagine if basketball referees were allowed and even encouraged to accept tips from the winning team. I've seen several instances where dealers admonished players for bad behavior (e.g., a player announcing what cards he had folded pre-flop after a flop came which would have given him a hand; a player announcing what hand he was folding on the river after a bet, with two players still to act) only to be verbally abused by the offenders. More often than not, dealers remain completely silent when things like this happen, either out of disinterest or for fear that it will affect their tips.

Yea i am sure dealers will work so hard when they are guarenteed so much money.

[NickMPK]

Originally Posted by AKQJ10

Seriously? I've never played live stud 8 (would like to), but what's the point of playing at stakes where both your hands are getting HU on 3rd and the antes barely pay for the rake?

I have had similar thoughts because i play so much low-stakes O8. If you spend a session getting quartered or worse this is a frustration, but i'm against players so bad that even when my A2 or A3 gets quartered, it breaks even because of all the horrible preflop hands. Often i take half with naked A2 and still do well.

I would suggest just tipping on the high half unless the pot is multiway and rather large. Inattentive dealers will think you cheap but it's a good opportunity to practice not caring. I say the same for myself (but tip-pooling saves me the Angst!).

This is a little off-topic for the thread, but the ante in pink chip or 10/20 stud is $1. If you are playing six handed and get heads up with the bring-in (a very common situation), you exactly win your money back by chopping minus $4 rake.

[NickMPK]

Originally Posted by 2OutsNoProb

I don't know much about Stud Hi Lo. As far as Omaha Hi Lo, pots that get halved or quartered and lead to bad-tipping situations are very often the result of poor play by people who have already put themselves in a -EV situation by their very play of the hand. Not really the dealer's fault when you go to war HU with nothing but a naked low draw and a pot full of your own money

I'm certainly not saying the dealer should get nothing. But the dealer also doesnt really merit being tipped double just because a pot got split. It would be nice if a conventioned developed to resolve the burder of appropriate tipping in these situations.

[Lattimer]

Originally Posted by NickMPK

I'm certainly not saying the dealer should get nothing. But the dealer also doesnt really merit being tipped double just because a pot got split. It would be nice if a conventioned developed to resolve the burder of appropriate tipping in these situations.

If there's an odd chip left, it goes to the high hand. So, high hand tips.

[#1 tightass]

For the last 10 years of my poker career Ive been tipping the janitors instead of the dealers. The skill level is about the same on both jobs, yet the janitors work 10 times harder and make far less.

lol at all you dealers who think I'm obligated give you part of my pot . I love stiffing you guys and giving the money to the more deserving.

Trolling.

[mrdasefx]

These threads are a lot more fun when people start talking about tipping waiters and waitresses.

[AKQJ10]

Originally Posted by 2OutsNoProb

In a handful of days, you and the rest of the 50% would lose it all back anyway, as rakes would rise heavily to compensate the dealers, who clearly wouldn't be interested in having their salaries drastically reduced.

Yeah, that was my point. If the system's about to undergo an immense shift, it's not my responsibility to be one of the last holdouts playing under the old set of rules. That would make me one of the suckers paying the higher rake and tipping too.

Originally Posted by 2OutsNoProb

I guess people on m end get satisfaction out of enjoying ourselves and making others feel better without constantly worrying about winrates. $1 on $300 in 1/2 NL wouldn't make me feel good about myself.

Then you should tip enough to make you feel OK about yourself, perhaps enough to make you feel as though you're playing your part to help dealers earn a decent living. I tip enough to make me feel that way.

As you well know, winning one $300 pot per night doesn't mean my EV is $300 per session, and it only costs the dealer a little more effort than pushing a $9 five-way limped pot, certainly not 30x as much. (I tip $1 for those too, at present. If i start tippng more on $300 then i will tip less for $9. Seems like the net effect would be to increase variance for the dealers.)

Now that i'm playing more $2-5 and $15/30, i'll tip one or two more for a $400-500ish pot.

Do you guys follow the same principles when you're out at the bar, restaurant, hair cut place, etc etc etc? Keep in mind there that you're in real life, not on 2p2, and you can't cite winrates as an excuse,...

So except for the fact that those situations are nothing like poker, do i treat them exactly like poker? Huh?

On occasion i'll tip a few extra bucks to the janitorial staff. I figure they work as hard as the dealers (which is to say, pretty damned hard) but get less recognition. I don't take dealers for granted, but i figure $30 / hour of active work balanced by $2/hour of sitting there spading decks waiting for games to start is probably reasonable compensation.

I should have considered an extra quarterly bonus for dealers i considered good when i played where they can keep their own tips. In Michigan, i might still do that but it won't be as much because it can't be targeted.

[AKQJ10]

Originally Posted by #1 tightass

lol at all you dealers who think I'm obligated give you part of my pot . I love stiffing you guys and giving the money to the more deserving.

LOL at the grade-C trolls. I remember the days when 2+2 could attract the best!

[2OutsNoProb]

Originally Posted by #1 tightass

For the last 10 years of my poker career Ive been tipping the janitors instead of the dealers. The skill level is about the same on both jobs, yet the janitors work 10 times harder and make far less.

lol at all you dealers who think I'm obligated give you part of my pot . I love stiffing you guys and giving the money to the more deserving.

For 70 posts, nobody acted out of line. Responses were fair, thoughtful, reasonable, and covered both sides of the issue intelligently.

Then we get this single abomination, from someone with a handful of posts.

Fast forward to 3 months from now. Another one of these threads will pop up, and someone will comment how "every tipping thread turns into an insult fest and they should be locked".

These threads are a lot more fun when people start talking about tipping waiters and waitresses.

If you're referring to me, I thought it was a reasonable line of thought to bring up.

[2OutsNoProb]

So except for the fact that those situations are nothing like poker, do i treat them exactly like poker? Huh?

Virtually everyone in the anti-tipping crowd says the same thing, that they don't want to cut into their own money to pay someone for simply doing their job. Under their line of thought, I fail to see how the two aren't exactly alike. I find it tough to believe that the people in the anti-tipping poker crowd are flinging around large amounts of money towards people in service professions in other walks of life

[AKQJ10]

I don't evaluate myself on pursuit of gastronomy as a hobby by totaling my session results from different restaurants over the years. (For a long time i tried to keep my books in gross and net terms for more or less this reason, to encourage me to tip more, but that felt sort of silly to track so i've stopped doing it this year.)

If you think i'm representative of "the anti-tipping crowd", then you're probably not going to like much of where this thread heads.

Anyway, i'm tired of explaining what i tip, and i certainly have no desire to defend it. I tip what i think upholds my end of the social compact with dealers. If you do the same, then good for you.

[gjpsr]

1tightass You know nothing of casino profits, the rake in a poker room is nothing compared to other profit centers Poker makes very little money compared to slots In my room about 50 times more minus the increased labor cost. If you dont want to tip dont, If your a cheap person fine, but dont think your going to justify it by blaming evil greedy card rooms or rich casinos or republicans. If we go to a wage base system you would have a union for sure, poker dealers in my casino are the only people who rejected the union because of the wage we make with tips, take away tips and you would have to increase our pay by about 6 times per hour if cost go up 600 percent what do you think the rake will do, do you think casinos will obsorb that or close the poker room, Take a business class if you dont believe me.