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Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.
Because it's the most contentious topic discussed in the B&M Forum, a containment thread for tipping is necessary to prevent trolling and the incredibly predictable and repetitive nature of tipping threads from diluting the forum. Enjoy!
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.
No one should tell another person whether or not to tip or how much to tip.
Having said that, if a poker dealer has the hope of getting tipped, they will work faster and cleaner. Dealing more hands with fewer mistakes is +EV for anyone playing. Pay a dealer a fixed rate and any incentive to deal faster and make fewer mistakes is gone. Refuse to tip dealers and you will eventually find yourselves with tip free, self dealt tables. The same DB's that angle shoot every chance they get will be dealing the cards as the deal is passed around. |
Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.
Electronic Tables will eliminate dealer tipping issues in the future for the next generation (probably have jacks so you can plug in your Ipad too).
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.
Yeah, because I want human made, fallible technologies controlling my chosen game.
Human interaction/Money + ability to cheat = Scams 100% of the time throughout history. See market makers and the stock market, see Michael Malkin etc. |
Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.
I think it's worth noting early in this thread that the tipping issue is confined primarily to North America. In most countries, dealers are (usually) paid a higher-than-minimum wage and tipping is at least not customary, and may be discouraged or even prohibited (by the casino or by law).
Whether this is a better or worse system for players is a matter that has been, and surely will be some more, debated quite a bit even though it's very difficult to tackle in any sensible way. But it is unarguable that a world of poker with minimal or no tipping exists and functions at least reasonably well. It is also unarguable that in most United States casinos, at least, the situation is different and tipping is customary and this affects dealers' compensation by the casino. Carry on. |
Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.
What are people's opinions of tipping where the tokes are shared equally between dealers? You can no longer just tip the good dealers and not tip the bad ones, also there's no real incentive for dealers to perform better to get more tips.
I remember when I was fairly new to poker, maybe playing for about 2 months online and barely beating 5NL I tried playing live and I met this guy who was a really good player and he'd help me out with hands; give me advice on pretty much anything. He said to me one day, "Hey Jarret, want to know a secret that will increase your winnings by 6k every year if you play live for a living? Don't tip." I still tip, but I find myself tipping less and less, especially due to the shared tips. |
Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.
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It'll be interesting to hear from those who have spent plenty of time at both North American and European poker tables. Some questions come to mind: Is the rake typically higher or lower in Europe than North America? Sadly, I have never played in Europe myself. Is there typically a Bad Beat Jackpot rake (or similar promo rake) in Europe? Are the dealers typically more/less competent and professional there than North American dealers? Obviously this can be very anecdotal, but those who have traveled a lot can have a bunch of insight here. |
Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.
Over the past two years I have played poker at least 3 times a week in various rooms around the country, and I've come to the conclusion that tipping should be not only eliminated, but prohibited, and that dealers should be salaried employees. This would require an increased rake, but would result in more overall integrity in the game, and probably a lower cost to players, especially winning players.
Dealers are the officials controlling each hand. They are responsible for overseeing the game and making sure players act appropriately. But because they rely on players to pay their salary, they have an incentive not to irritate them or make any waves. Players, either out of ignorance or inconsiderateness, often act inappropriately, and most dealers are often loath to call them on it for fear that it will affect their tips if they irritate the players. Imagine if basketball referees were allowed and even encouraged to accept tips from the winning team. I've seen several instances where dealers admonished players for bad behavior (e.g., a player announcing what cards he had folded pre-flop after a flop came which would have given him a hand; a player announcing what hand he was folding on the river after a bet, with two players still to act) only to be verbally abused by the offenders. More often than not, dealers remain completely silent when things like this happen, either out of disinterest or for fear that it will affect their tips. |
Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.
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That said, there is no reasonable to get from point A to point B. Casinos do not pay a living wage (for the most part) and dealers are expected to make a reasonable hourly rate by way of tips. "It oughtn't be so" is great, but I don't really see any way to make it not so aside from the casinos taking the initiative and raising dealer base pay -- and why would any casino individually undertake such a chane? By doing so, they would be volunteering to pay dealers much more than the market demands. What would they get in return for this? Almost nothing. Even if we assign an arbitrary value to their players' "good will", the fact is most players you will meet in most cardrooms would be entirely indifferent about about such a drastic change. Quote:
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.
I think the best argument for structuring things such that tips are important goes away when tips are pooled. (Note that there are other arguments that don't — for example, the optional nature of tipping means that to some extent people who value marginal dollars more pay less for dealers' services, while those who value money less [perhaps because they're winning tonight, or for whatever other reason] or are otherwise happy to tip pay more.) If I know that tips are pooled (which isn't obvious at all, sadly, and is rarely publicly disclosed) then I am much less inclined to tip than otherwise.
Still, the argument that dealers are rewarded for doing their job well is not as strong as it should be, because the cultural expectation is that winners of each hand tip. There are deviations from the norm, but as a first order approximation, most players tip a fixed amount for each pot won or an amount dependent only on pot size, without regard to whether the dealer is good or bad. Truly terrible dealers will get tipped less, and dealers who deal fewer hands will suffer proportionally therefor, but it's still perfectly possible for a lazy or incompetent dealer to make a decent living including tips. Things would be far better if we could somehow instill, in places where tipping is expected, a change in the specifics of the tipping culture. If most players were to eschew the per-pot tip and instead toss two or three or however many dollars to the good dealers at the end of their downs, whether the player won or lost, there would be a much stronger incentive for dealers to do their best and for those who are incapable of doing well to leave the field. |
Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.
I never expected this thread to touch on the most interesting and worthwhile topic regarding tipping (the business model of tipping v. living wage) at all, let alone immediately.
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At the places I have played, there is a BBJ and other promotions that are paid directly out of the rake rather than out of a promotional drop. In my experience, European dealers are typically more competent and professional than North American dealers. |
Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.
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BTW, I get asked once or twice a week if my room pools tips, I tell them the truth of course that we do not pool tips. I pushed into a table yesterday and a player threw me a tip he would have given to the last dealer since: "you guys pool tips anyway." I explained that we do not pool tips and I had a chip runner take the tip to the dealer I pushed out. Mant casinos pool tips in their table games deparment, games like "let it Ride", BJ, etc. But NOT in poker. if you have been told thatthe BJ dealers pool their tips, please do not assume that poker dealers in the same casino also pool their tips. Ask a floor, ask a dealer, they'll tell you how it is. |
Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.
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Does the room you play ion pool dealers tips?
I think this would be an interesting side bar to this discussion. Can we get a list of rooms that pool tips for poker dealers started?
I believe pooling tips lowers the comtencey level of the deaelrs because good dealers know thay can make more money elsewhere. If you play in rooms that pool and other rooms that do not, what have been your experiences in the quality of dealers between the two? |
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.
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See the post I made above where I ask about poker rooms with tip pools, check back and see what kind of a response it gets. |
Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.
I tip 5% everytime that I win a pot which is biggen than half of my stack. Is that ok?
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If someone is getting paid a fair wage, I think it's reasonable to expect that person to be courteous, professional and hard working, regardless of how that wage is earned (ie tips or salary). And if you can't maintain that level of professionalism while working because you feel you could be earning more, for whatever reason, you'll be weeded out as anyone would be under those conditions. |
Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.
I almost never tip any more. All anyone ever wants from you is your money; well I like money too and have decided to have as much of it as is possible. Most dealers are vaguely annoying anyway; I think if I play somewhere that dealers kept their own tips I may tip a very modest sum to the very best dealers.
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.
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You're correct that "good" often means unexceptional, so that's a problem to some extent. It could be partially solved if more players were willing to stiff dealers who don't do a good job — not just those who do something egregious to them personally, but those who are less than eager or less than technically proficient. Eventually those dealers either shape up or leave, and the average competence goes up, provided that the good (meaning, as you say, unexceptional in many cases) dealers make enough to make the job desirable for them. 1 The counterargument is that tipping per hand provides an incentive to deal more hands, which is a good thing for everyone (including the house). That's true, but it also tends to decrease the effect of stiffing when a dealer does a bad thing, because it will typically only affect a single hand's tip and then only if the person who is hurt by or notices the poor conduct happens to win the pot. |
Re: Does the room you play ion pool dealers tips?
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The only other nearby room (Mohegan Sun) keeps their own tips. Generally speaking, the dealers at Mohegan are better than at Foxwoods. |
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