Hey everyone. I'm new here (sortah). Been a fan of poker for the last 8-10 years, played a lot online, and as it got harder for Americans to play I slowly quit the game.

I moved to an area that has Casino's and poker and I wanted to ask a few questions about getting back into the game.

Trying to be honest...I'd say I'm a below average player. Break even at best, but I'm willing to put in the time and learn like I have in other aspects of my life. Mainly because I enjoy the game.

I've got a great job, and I'm an entrepreneur so I know I will never rely on Poker for an income. But right now I'd like to bring in some extra money through poker if possible to buy a few things.

From reading the threads, the advice I've gotten is to take a small amount of money to the tables and play ABC poker. Even though it sortah contradicts all the bankroll management "rules".

Is there any advice to poker players who don't want to make it a career, but just want to earn some extra money from the tables on the side?

If you were break even online you may well be quite profitable live, if you can handle the slower pace.
No such thing as BRM required if the money you use to play poker isnt really your roll. You can set aside some money and pretend its your roll, this is useful if you want to avoid losing too much before you realise you suck. You would then need to play stakes accordingly.
If 200$ isn't going to break the bank then sit down and play. Be prepared to lose 5+ BI in a bad night or set a stop loss (if you can't handle that).

I agree with the above post. Forget bankroll management and understand that you are effectively taking small shots during your trips to the casino. You don't have a bankroll; you have stop losses. This is fine, so long as you know the difference. Play ABC poker at first. Once you become comfortable, you can play a wider game.

I will tell you that bankrolls are not only used to reduce our risk of ruin (i.e. the reality of losing money) but also to reduce the threat of losing money. Being totally willing to lose every dollar in front of you can mean the difference between being a winning player and being a losing or breakeven player, and it really opens up your game beyond ABC. The single largest advantage I have as a cash game player is my ability to reload and knowing at all times that I have that ability.

It kind of sounds as if you've already seen this thread, but in case you haven't, take a look. The OP was frustrating, but some of the replies (including mine) might be useful to you:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/27...-live-1218563/

Great post, by the way. It looks like you have a pretty firm grasp of the concepts you need to understand to be successful in this endeavor Have fun, and don't think about BR. You will do well.

I'm in your boat, really, as a recreational player with a separate income source who still cares about the game and wants to win.

If I were in your shoes, I would bring 2-3 buy-ins when you visit the casino and make that your stop-loss for a given session. Always know what your stop loss is; and I find it very helpful also to set a quitting time for myself, whether I'm or down. For a recreational player, we can bend the poker-optimal rules of never leaving a good game. Life comes first.

I would start at $1/2, where you can get accustomed to the live game, its pace, its player pool, etc. If you find you are burning money, study your game, post here with questions, and play $1/2 (the lowest limit likely to to be spread at your casino) until you feel your game is tuned up.

But once your game is where you want it to and you are comfortable with the procedures of the game and the casino, THEN if you have enough spare cash for $2/5 or whatever the next limit up is, and if you are not relying on rapid victories, etc; you should take a stab without worrying about classing bankroll management.

If you want to play with the chance of supplementing your income significantly, then you have to play the stakes where that is possible, and if you are comfortable with putting the cash at risk, then you should definitely take your shot.


Best of luck.

EF

OP is in the same boat as most poker players. He has a job. He likes to play poker. He isn't good at poker. (Thank you, by the way, for continuing to play. )

I'll say the same thing everybody else is saying...

Just pick an amount you can budget to lose at poker, just like you might at any other hobby. If you were an RC helicopter fan you'd be buying stuff to support that hobby. If you're into water skiing you gotta pay for a boat and gas. Fine, you're going to set aside $1500 to start, say, and budget $300/mo (or whatever) to replenish the roll if need be. If you lose it all, stop playing for a couple months until you've got more, just like if you crash your RC helicopter you'd have to save your pennies until you could buy a replacement. Keep playing small stakes until you find you don't have to use your job to support your hobby. Once NL1/2 becomes profitable, then you can consider moving up.

One thing about being a recreational player is there really is no pressure to constantly move up. You can be a Top100 poker player in the world and sit at NL1/2 tables your whole life if you want to. You can be a billionaire and play NL1/2 your whole life. If you're doing it for fun and for a small boost in spending money, you may find NL1/2 is much more enjoyable than trying to do battle at NL10/20. Do what makes you happy. Just don't become a gambling addict.

Op, hate to break it to you, but poker is a zero-sum game. Add rake and tips and its a negative-sum game. This means you're as likely to win a buck as lose a buck.

If you want to "pick up a little extra cash", you're better off hustling on Craigslist or eBay.

Keep poker a fun hobby. Try to make it a job, and it truly becomes a grind.

It's possible to make money consistently in a negative-sum game.

Your last sentence is worded very incorrectly; you're not "as likely" to win or lose in a zero-sum game.

If you are in it to make money, I probably wouldnt. if you want a free form of entertainment, then go for it.

Put $600-1k into poker, get a poker tracker app (in order to encourage you to take responsibility for your winnings or losses), and play a safe tight game. If you have other means, then just dont ever take the money out until you get up to at least 6-10k. Also, pay for any degenerate gambling out of the same bankroll so as to discourage such action. Thats what I did. Because I live pretty far from any casino, its taken me about 2 years, but im very close to being rolled for $2/$5. I just see it as "free recreation". I get a free or cheap hotel, free entertainment, free or discounted food, free drinks, its pretty much the cheapest vacation ever. One day down the road, ill probably be happy ive made all this money, but for now when im home I pretty much forget that I have thousands of dollars of cash sitting in an envelope downstairs.

That is not what it means.

OP I won't bother entertaining this unless you need help understanding why it's wrong.

Sorry if I come off as a prick, really trying to help and be concise. In no particular order:

#1 Recreational players don't have bankrolls. Bankrolls are what winning players have.
#2 Have a poker budget, and play on a REGULAR basis (1-2 a week)
#3 Live in the 2+2 LLSNL forum
#4 It will take you about a year playing twice a week to actually become a consistent LLSNL winner and to move up from 1/2nl to 2/5nl.
#5 Plan on losing around $10K before you become a consistent winning player.
#6 Track your results
#7 Search 2+2 threads on live play (stickies in LLSNL) along with "Live vs Online Play"
#8 When you are ready to play for a side income, make sure you amass a real bankroll since consistent play is important.
#9 Be realistic in your goals and be wary of advice from people who don't regularly play live or people who's advice consists of "I'm super awesome and all you gotta do is be as awesome as I am.."
#10 Study BRM and Risk of Ruin and Live Winrates
#11 Despite popular belief 1/2nl and 2/5nl are DIFFERENT games and they play differently (Note: deep stack 1/2nl plays more like 2/5nl)
#12 be an active member in the LLSNL and Poker Theory forums as well as hitting up the popular stickies and archives and online articles, etc.
#13 Read Harrington on Cash Games
#14 If you are serious about playing poker for a side income, no degen games whatsoever ever ever F***ing ever!!!
#15 You know you will be well on your way to making poker a side income when it stops being "fun" (this is debateable)

good luck

don't do it. recreational poker is just that- recreation. Sitting at a 1/2 table to win $20/hr isn't exactly generating much in the way of extra income.

Play the game and have fun. Win a little and lose a little. Don't look at this as a way to make money (at 1/2 it's not)

Largely agree with the rest, but this is silly. If you read a couple poker books and have even a basic understanding of beginner fundamentals, you're already well ahead of most 1/2 players. If you are actively trying to learn and play good poker and you find yourself $10,000 in the hole, at the lowest possible limits of the game, you probably lack the native intelligence and/or emotional control to ever be a winning player.

Yeah, there are a few of dgiharris's points that I absolutely don't agree with, but that one especially is wow wtf. I'm tempted to go down the list, but I don't want to come off as the forum pedant. There is a lot of wrong in it.

Speaking of.

I will say for me, if I was a recreational player, I would play the highest stakes I could as long as I was at least break even and the stakes weren't way over my income from my job. In your shoes though, id be worried your a losing player even at 1/2 nl, so I wouldn't move beyond that level of stakes until you start to see some winning.

This statement annoys me to know end. Every week, some noob comes on 2+2 and says, "Hey guys, I'm a losing player but have now decided that i'm going to turn pro. What do I need to do to beat the live game."

Then a few online players reply, "Oh yeah, live play is easy, read a couple of books, scrap together $3k and you will crush..."

Bulls***!

Yes, live 1/2nl players suck. But that isn't the whole story. The reason why being a consistent Live-Low-Stakes-No-Limit winner is so hard is because of the OTHER factors such as having the discipline to fold for an hour straight playing a game that deals and plays as slow as glaciers form.

I see hot shot online players come in all the time and they spew 3-4 buys in within a couple of hours because they can't handle the SSSSSLLLLLLLOOOOOOOWWWWWWwwwwwww pace of live play and can't help but try to "rep" some hands vs ultra bad players who couldn't fold if their lives depended on it (especially at 1/2nl)

Look, as someone who has made their living from live poker over the last two years I'm telling you, if you are NOT a "live" winning player and you want to become a LLSNL "pro" then you need to plan on losing $10k before you figure out how to be a "pro".

The truth is, only winning players have bankrolls, for everyone else, their poker budget is an "expense".

Now, if OP has some talent along with the emotional, mental, and psychological discipline to handle the slow pace and "awful" players he will encounter, then he probably won't burn through the whole $10k before he figures out a winning formula.

But if you think a losing player won't burn through $10k before becoming a bonafide winning player then you have no clue what you are talking about.