So you have a problem with someone deliberately acting out of turn in order to induce a specific action from you,

but you have no problem with someone DELIBERATELY misrepresenting their intentions while betting and then calling the floor over to further the misrepresentation of their actions all in order to induce a speficic action from you...

That is a much bigger angle than betting out of turn.

How? He made a bet and lied about why he made that bet. Just like when I say "bluff" as I throw out chips. Table talk, especially heads up, is perfectly within the rules.

Actually I think that's a much more interesting question.

Was the angleshot legal or illegal? I mean as opposed to unethical/impolite.

If it was legal, then we know what the floor did was illegal. He absolutely can't be telling another player information while in a hand about his opponent.

If it was illegal, then what's the punishment? Waiting until he gets in another hand and helping the opponent? In a way, this is a double whammy for the original opponent who got angleshot. He gets the angle, and then another one of his competitors gets help during a hand, which indirectly hurts him again.

Our gut reaction toward the floor's action is "alright!". But really, it wasn't allowed was it?

I have no problem with the floors action here simply because its out of line to push this line to the point that requires a floorcall.


If the player simply throws out the bigger chips and then says oops I didn;t mean that .... oh well I guess I'm stuck with it. Thats fine. Its not an angle. Its not illegal.

But calling for a decison on it is out of line. So the floor saying (You are not going to continue to use me as a prop in your little games is perfectly acceptable).

I do not think it was the best way for the floor to handle this. The next time the guy pulls the move he could be on a complete bluff and using the floors warning as part of his game. I would be far more inclined to impose a penalty on the player.

Yeah, but again, at some point in this discussion, we're going to have to address the issue: is it legal or illegal to shoot that angle? You're talking about "pushing a line". Well there should be a rule. Do it twice and it's a penalty? Do it 3 times? In other words, is there a rule against it or isn't there? We can't just say the floor made a good judgement call, because there's no rule at all that says the floor should do that. To me, the clearest part of all this was that the floor broke the rules, as much as I like it.

So, is there a rule I'm not aware of? Or should the rules be changed? Or what?

The TDA rules say a penalty can be imposed for disruptive behavior. I would say that calling for a floor decision here is disruptive behavior. I do not think you get to do it once. But if you only do it once we might give you the benefit of the doubt in believing that you legitimately did not intend to bet that much and you honestly wanted a floor to make a ruling.

Again my issue is not with his pretending he made a mistake...... I don't consider that an angle or a rules violation.

OK I'll buy that.

Now, what should the penalty be? Other than virtually telling his opponent he has the nuts (which is satisfying to us in a Disney sort of way, but can't be right thing to do), what should the penalty be? I think it should be sitting out a couple orbits, or something like that, don't you? I mean the floor's action in this case can't be right....

such an obvious angle that I've seen people do similar with air, knowing that people will think "oh he has a set" and fold.

[x] angle
[x] obvious
[ ] understandable that you fell for it

If you've seen people do it with air, then how is your last box not checked...seems contradictory to me

If someone raises 4x the pot then I'm not going to take the risk with TPGK.

The fact that he made the raise "by accident" should have no bearing on the situation since it's such an obvious angle.

If he wants to make a ridiculous bluff with so much risk for so little reward then more power to him, but he's not going to fool me. Sooner or later I'll call him with the nuts. Until then I'll fold and say nice hand.

this is such a dumb statement

No. It doesn't.

If you can't tell he did this on purpose then too bad. If see people do this plenty, and it's obvious in the way they act.

I would say him calling the floor is pretty scummy.

I done something like this once. A guy in front of me went all in (very very short stack). I had aces and meant to just call, but I threw out the wrong chips and a couple people noticed that I didn't mean to do it. And one even asked if I meant to out of reaction (probably shouldn't have said anything and I rarely do at the tables anyway) said "no. I threw out the wrong chips" I was not trying to angle anyone but after I said that realized if they would see my hand at showdown that it could be interpenetrated as such. And began feeling very embarrassed for myself. Anyone everyone else folded and I did win the pot. So sometimes it can just be an accident.

Wrong! Surely a player at final table of major tournament shouldn't get help in making his decisions, and especially not from the floor? OPTAH.

The transparent angleshooter and the other players at the table should be upset that they have to beat some favored player who gets help just to make a decision on a min raise. I think the TD got it wrong twice and villain shouldn't even be held to a min raise also. Was villain held to min raise each time he did it previously or just bc the TD was mad at him this time bc TD knew about his cheesy style? Is there a rule requiring this to be a min raise? Of course the more it's above a min raise, the easier it is for the bettor to figure out it's not meant to be a call. No way he gets it wrong w two td's helping him play his hand. No other player would have been allowed to help bettor finish playing his hand by telling bettor about villain's prior hand history.