Moderation Discussion Thread

[Saul T. Nutz]

Originally Posted by Lattimer

His posts were deleted because he's a Revel dealer. From the FAQ:

(6) Card room employees. Card room employees must become authorized representatives before posting information on their place of employment.

Isn't the intent of that simply so some nutjob doesn't start posting bogus poker promotions?

Many rooms won't want to make someone an "official" rep for various business/union/legal reasons.

The policy, if enforced like this, will discourage knowledgeable posts and may encourage incognito gimmicks.

[dinesh]

No, the intent is to get official casino reps to pay 2+2 in order to use the site to their promotional and competitive advantage.

It is an understood drawback that the policy might cause 2+2 to have fewer knowledgeable posts from room personnel who know exact facts that player-posters may not have access to. Thems the breaks.

[Saul T. Nutz]

Originally Posted by dinesh

No, the intent is to get official casino reps to pay 2+2 in order to use the site to their promotional and competitive advantage.

It is an understood drawback that the policy might cause 2+2 to have fewer knowledgeable posts from room personnel who know exact facts that player-posters may not have access to. Thems the breaks.

Oh, ok. Makes sense. I didn't realize people paid 2p2 for posting.

Thanks

[Bobo Fett]

Originally Posted by Saul T. Nutz

Isn't the intent of that simply so some nutjob doesn't start posting bogus poker promotions?

Many rooms won't want to make someone an "official" rep for various business/union/legal reasons.

The policy, if enforced like this, will discourage knowledgeable posts and may encourage incognito gimmicks.

Yes, that's part of it, so I'm not sure what the problem is. If a room doesn't want to make someone an official rep, that's their decision to make. We're not going to allow people to become an "unofficial" rep just by saying they work somewhere - that would bring us right back to the problem in your first paragraph. That's not to say we have any reason to believe that anyone in this thread is lying about where they work, but we also have no way of verifying it if they refuse to do so.

Originally Posted by dinesh

No, the intent is to get official casino reps to pay 2+2 in order to use the site to their promotional and competitive advantage.

It is an understood drawback that the policy might cause 2+2 to have fewer knowledgeable posts from room personnel who know exact facts that player-posters may not have access to. Thems the breaks.

Not entirely true - we have lots of room reps here, the vast majority of whom aren't paying to advertise. It's not a complicated process; all they have to do is email us so we can verify they are who they claim to be, and explain what they are and aren't allowed to post.

Originally Posted by Saul T. Nutz

Oh, ok. Makes sense. I didn't realize people paid 2p2 for posting.

Thanks

That's not exactly how it works. Qualifying advertisers are allowed a lot more leeway in what they can post. Non-advertising reps are under a fairly strict set of guidelines, and can only answer direct questions about their poker room.

[Saul T. Nutz]

Originally Posted by Bobo Fett

...
That's not exactly how it works. Qualifying advertisers are allowed a lot more leeway in what they can post. Non-advertising reps are under a fairly strict set of guidelines, and can only answer direct questions about their poker room.

My post, before being mod-edited to completely change its meaning, was "I didn't realize people like ____ had to pay to post."

I mentioned someone by name so my post was redacted. The guy I named signs every post with his first and last name so I don't understand why his name was expunged, but that is not the issue here. (I won't use his name, but let's just say his elite poker room "Rules the East"...)

The issue was with a poker dealer at AC's newest casino being muzzled. The Revel thread had way more questions than answers, and a Revel dealer was being quite helpful.

His last post that was deleted (At least last one that I saw) was discussing a problem with the Bravo system that was being fixed by the end of the week. Most, if not all of his posts, were directly answering 2p2ers questions.

This is not a complaint about the mod. If it is who I think it is (Lattimer), the guy does an awesome job. The mod was just following this rule:

His posts were deleted because he's a Revel dealer. From the FAQ:

(6) Card room employees. Card room employees must become authorized representatives before posting information on their place of employment.

I don't understand how deleting those informative posts can possibly be a good decision for 2+2. This is not some random using advertising spam and trying to get out of paying ad fees. It is one 2p2er helping out other 2p2ers.

Revel (As well as some other poker rooms) do not want to designate anyone an official rep for various reasons.

So by misapplication of that rule (IMO) we actually silence some people that have the most knowledge of what is being discussed in the thread.

Bobo,

Is that really the intent of the rule? Some schmuck can post 3rd hand questionable information all day long but knowledgeable dealers can not post?

[Quadstriker]

Originally Posted by Bobo Fett

Not entirely true - we have lots of room reps here, the vast majority of whom aren't paying to advertise. It's not a complicated process; all they have to do is email us so we can verify they are who they claim to be, and explain what they are and aren't allowed to post.

Did the alleged Poker room manager in this thread follow the necessary guidelines of emailing you for verification and receive guidelines?

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/27...-over-1192995/

[Bobo Fett]

Originally Posted by Saul T. Nutz

I don't understand how deleting those informative posts can possibly be a good decision for 2+2. This is not some random using advertising spam and trying to get out of paying ad fees. It is one 2p2er helping out other 2p2ers.

How do you know it isn't "some random"? He told you he works there, therefore he does?

This rule is used throughout many forums here at 2+2. If you want to post representing a business, or to use the credibility of working at a business, you need to be authorized to do so. It's for everyone's protection. We don't want people posting saying that they represent/work at some business when they don't. The businesses don't want that, and you shouldn't either. The only way to make sure that doesn't happen is to have the poster contact us and verify who they are.

Also, reps that are posting for rooms that aren't advertising with 2+2 aren't allowed to post in a way that could be promotional; they are here only to answer direct questions about their poker room. I believe a couple posts in the Revel thread also violated this rule.

Originally Posted by Saul T. Nutz

Revel (As well as some other poker rooms) do not want to designate anyone an official rep for various reasons.

You seem to have some information that I don't; AFAIK they haven't contacted us, so I have no idea if they do or do not want to designate anyone. I've never had a poker room contact me saying they'd like to post about their room, but can't designate someone as an official rep.

Originally Posted by Saul T. Nutz

Is that really the intent of the rule? Some schmuck can post 3rd hand questionable information all day long but knowledgeable dealers can not post?

Well, we can't do anything about all the schmucks (hell, I've posted on 2+2 for years), but dealers are certainly welcome to post, and many do. But if they want to start answering questions about a room they work at, there are some fairly simple rules they have to follow.

Originally Posted by Quadstriker

Did the alleged Poker room manager in this thread follow the necessary guidelines of emailing you for verification and receive guidelines?

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/27...-over-1192995/

Nope, and thanks for letting me know. He's been contacted, and I would expect that we'll get him set up properly in short order.

Any time you see someone posting as if they are representing a poker room without a custom undertitle, I'd like to know about it. You can use the post report feature, or PM me. I know, snitches get stitches and all that, but the rule is there for what we feel are good reasons. And it's not that hard for these guys to get set up to post under the rules, so let us know and we'll look after it.

[xniNja]

Disclaimer: I have not read fully through this thread.

In my experienced opinion... moderation of the 2+2 forums in general, has been BAD. Since I started lurking, sometime in 2002.

Mods pretty much maintain their power hungry reputations... even if they aren't particularly power hungry... they tend to click so many moderation buttons, there's no other description for them.

This place would do better if the mods just modded the REALLY extreme, worthless, troll-like posters.

They don't, so I'd say MOST of their (mods) actions are overboard, unwarranted, useless.

Regulars, long term members, etc. should pretty much have free reign to speak their minds.

Poker is a gentleman's game... even if it has become something else to many people...

Stop treating members like children, even if some are... the ones that aren't don't appreciate patronization to any degree. Remember, we're talking about hardened poker players.

Finally, if I were a mod, I would operate like so:

Whenever I logged in, I'd be a member of the community like usual. If I see something WRONG, I'll moderate it. What I see WRONG seems to vary too much from what the actual 2+2 mods do all the time.

I obviously think my judgment is far superior.

[Saul T. Nutz]

Originally Posted by Bobo Fett

How do you know it isn't "some random"? He told you he works there, therefore he does?
...

2p2ers are damn near cyberstalkers. "Bull****" would be called quick.

What about in a situation where poster x works in a poker room and several 2p2ers know dealer x. Dealer x's boss/management is/are a/ douche(s) and has/have an overreaching "Social Media" policy.

Dealer x understandably doesn't want his name in some file. Three or more posters can vouch that he is in fact dealer x at poker room y. Can dealer x mention he is a dealer while answering questions on the forum?

[Rapini]

It's none of our business as moderators of B&M how cardroom managers want to run their rooms. I'm not sure why you would think it is. Here's a PM I sent to a dealer a while back that answers some specific questions from the dealer on what is acceptable and unacceptable w/r/t employees posting about their places of employment in B&M. That should give you some clarity on what is and is not allowed.

Originally Posted by Rapini

Thank you for your message. It's good that you're asking questions instead of just guessing.

Regarding posting in the [place of employment] thread or anything about [place of employment], you are limited to posting ONLY regarding rules and procedures. So...

"Am I not allowed to post anything opinion-oriented?" You are not allowed to post anything opinion-oriented either in the [place of employment] thread or with regard to [place of employment] anywhere in B&M.

"Can I talk about other casinos or [city of employment] in general?" Absolutely. I encourage you to get involved in particular with the [city of employment] Thread in the Regional Communities Forum if you want to talk about other casinos or [city of employment] in general. However, you would not be allowed to talk about other casinos or [city of employment] in general in the [place of employment] thread. And you are limited to discussing ONLY rules and procedures anywhere in B&M when discussing [place of employment].

"What exactly are procedures and rules? Can I post about table stakes and buy-in information?" Rules and procedures are exactly that--rules and procedures set either by [place of employment] or the [Gaming Commission]. You are allowed to post table stakes and buy-in information as long as it is simple fact and not colored by opinion.

"Can I talk about the weather outside the casino, like if it's a nice beach day?" Absolutely. See my answer re talking about other casinos or [city of employment] generally.

Please don't hesitate to let me know if you have any other questions.

[Saul T. Nutz]

Originally Posted by Rapini

It's none of our business as moderators of B&M how cardroom managers want to run their rooms. I'm not sure why you would think it is.

It is absolutely our business as poker players how cardroom managers want to run their rooms so we make informed decisions where to play. I'm not sure why you would think it isn't.

Originally Posted by Rapini

Here's a PM I sent to a dealer a while back that answers some specific questions from the dealer on what is acceptable and unacceptable w/r/t employees posting about their places of employment in B&M. That should give you some clarity on what is and is not allowed.

I have no doubt you enforce those rules fairly and consistently. That's actually the problem. Any rules that promote censorship should be reviewed IMO. At least those rules stop just short of assigning a scarlet "D" undertitle...

A dealer really can't speak out about unfair treatment, shady floor rulings, poor company policies, etc... And that seems right???

[Rapini]

Originally Posted by Saul T. Nutz

It is absolutely our business as poker players how cardroom managers want to run their rooms so we make informed decisions where to play. I'm not sure why you would think it isn't.

I think you're confused. What makes you think I would disagree with your statement that poker players should be concerned with how managers run their rooms?

Originally Posted by Saul T. Nutz

I have no doubt you enforce those rules fairly and consistently. That's actually the problem. Any rules that promote censorship should be reviewed IMO. At least those rules stop just short of assigning a scarlet "D" undertitle...

A dealer really can't speak out about unfair treatment, shady floor rulings, poor company policies, etc... And that seems right???

I personally think that anyone should be able to say anything about any poker room as long as they're 100% honest about their connection to the room (e.g., if you're a dealer, you have to tell the community that you're a dealer). But that's not the way things work here. The powers that be have decided that only authorized representatives can answer questions about their rooms and only paying advertisers can actively promote their rooms, so those are the rules we as moderators enforce. If you want that policy changed, you have to talk to the site administrators/owners, not the B&M moderators.

[Pot Odds RAC]

I think that Anonymous bitching is often chicken **** passive aggressive behavior. I don't like when players hide on the Internet to take shots at other players, dealers, or floor. I don't think it is any better when a dealer will come and do the same thing.

[Saul T. Nutz]

Originally Posted by Rapini

I personally think that anyone should be able to say anything about any poker room as long as they're 100% honest about their connection to the room

We are in complete agreement.

Originally Posted by Rapini

If you want that policy changed, you have to talk to the site administrators/owners, not the B&M moderators.

I thought that was what I was doing? Bobo Fett is involved in this discussion. I didn't move the discussion here. I assumed it was moved here because ATF is too busy with the signature mutiny.

The mods are following the rules. I'm not complaining about mods. I agree with all the rules except the rules overly restrictive towards dealers. For dealers that are not allowed to post by oppressive management, what good options does that leave?

Originally Posted by Pot Odds RAC

I think that Anonymous bitching is often chicken **** passive aggressive behavior. I don't like when players hide on the Internet to take shots at other players, dealers, or floor. I don't think it is any better when a dealer will come and do the same thing.

I agree with you 100% also. That's why I don't like this rule. It encourages gimmick accounts and anonymous bs.

[Bobo Fett]

Originally Posted by Saul T. Nutz

For dealers that are not allowed to post by oppressive management, what good options does that leave?

Is that really a common problem? I have no idea either way, but I hadn't heard of this being an issue until you mentioned it.

First of all, dealers are welcome to post here; where we run into issues is if someone wants to jump into a thread about Room XYZ and say "Hi, I work at Room XYZ and this is the way things are". First of all, how do we know they really work at Room XYZ? But granting for a moment that they do, if they have oppressive management, why would they want to post anything to help them out anyway? Which brings us to another issue - perhaps the dealer doesn't want to/isn't allowed to rep for the room because he's not happy there, and instead is out to sabotage the room. Or he works for the competition and is looking to do the same. And what if the room is OK with someone repping them here, but not Joe, as he doesn't come across very well in the forums, even though he's a great dealer.

I'm not suggesting that any of these things are common, but they are a few examples of the problems that can crop up when we allow someone to post on behalf of a poker room without any verification. It's really better for all parties concerned if we don't go down that road. If oppressive management not allowing people to post for them is a major issue, I'd like to hear about it, though.