Two Plus Two Publishing LLC Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > General Poker Discussion > Brick and Mortar

Brick and Mortar Discussions of brick and mortar gambling venues

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 12-13-2010, 08:41 AM   #1
newbie
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 15
Live rules about calling out your hand during the hand?

Was playing in a semi-serious local 'pub' league game, which attracts upto 30 runners. A lot of the players are regular casino players (me included) but this is very much a social game, albeit well run.

About mid way on in tournament, I have Aces in BB, a ton of limpers, everyone looks at me and someone says 'family pot?' - I say 'sorry Aces, gotta raise it up I'm afraid'. Now this is all very lighthearted.. and obv I'm joking as I say it, but also a bit of psyching going on, as we all like to do from time to time. I raise it up 5xBB.

One player calls...

I lead out on every street... he calls with a paired K from a K high flop... I show aces.. and state.. 'I told you I had aces' - everyone has good giggle. But.. one person, not in the hand, a casino reg.. causes a fuss (semi-serious), says that coz I called my hand pre, my hand is forfeit?! I was like 'are you serious' and we get the organiser over who confirms this.

According to their rules/information. Because I stated I had aces and actually HAD aces this is against casino rules. If I hadn't had aces it would have been fine. They reckon that this is standard... but I've played a bunch in casinos and have heard similar things being called out before, with no comment made...

I quoted Jamie Gold going through the WSOP pretty much declaring his hands the whole way through.. getting paid off coz nobody believed him ofc. They stated that may be the case in US but in UK it's a no go.

I didn't state it to anyone in particular to try and let them have a 'heads up' on my hand, it was just part of general playing.. and a 'lighthearted' response I might have made with any hand faced with a plea to not raise it up... just to mess with 'em.

The player I beat, didnt want the pot.. saw the funny side.. but I'm curious.. is this a well known/enforced rule? Anywhere?


Piano
ThePianoman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2010, 08:48 AM   #2
centurion
 
intelegant's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: MTTs...some cash to smooth
Posts: 182
Re: Live rules about calling out your hand during the hand?

This exact situation happened at an MTT at Malmö Casino three weeks ago. Guy says (in Swedish) call it I've got Kings... villain does, and then there's a bust-up quoting Jamie Gold. THe room manager (Who is a highly professional career casino worker) adjuducates:

You called. You lose

Villain: "But in Vegas the hand would be dead."

"We're not in Vegas, and the betting action takes precedence."

So I guess the lesson here is: it's your game, your rules. Just decide either way and live with it. Personally in this case I'd say so what, you said it, no worse than any other trash talk, other player has to work out if your bluffing or not......

Doesn't really help, but I kind of get why this could be worth a ruling.....
intelegant is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2010, 09:04 AM   #3
adept
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 768
Re: Live rules about calling out your hand during the hand?

Well, IMO, Jamie Gold got away with A LOT more than he ever should've been allowed to. I would never base any rules on something you see on the WSOP, as, for the most part, they're some of the most inconsistent or just plain incompetent rule enforcers I've ever seen.

As for what you said, meh... It would be a warning in my room; definitely not a forfeiture of a pot.
Dealer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2010, 09:22 AM   #4
adept
 
dinesh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,178
Re: Live rules about calling out your hand during the hand?

Neither disclosing your hand, nor even exposing it for all to see, should ever, ever, ever cause your hand to be killed.

Either disclosing your hand or exposing it does give the floor the opportunity to sanction you for it (missed hands/orbits, or even getting 86'ed from the casino for a time or permanently if you are a repeat offender), AFTER the hand.
dinesh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2010, 09:34 AM   #5
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
psandman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Vegas
Posts: 10,819
Re: Live rules about calling out your hand during the hand?

Your hand should not be dead for this..... But it is against the rules to talk about your hand like that. Of course this one instance wasn't a big deal and what should have happened was a simple warning at the time you said.

By the way ... the idea that you can talk about it if you lie but not if you tell the truth is idiotic.

and your citation of Jamie Gold's behavior is off base because the WSOP acknowledged that he should have been penalized.

http://www.wsop.com/news/varchive.asp?aid=172
psandman is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2010, 09:35 AM   #6
newbie
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 15
Re: Live rules about calling out your hand during the hand?

FWIW, in Casino games, I'm a very 'quiet' player... I just sit and play, and watch, very rarely chat, and if I do, it's about some other shiz than poker... I'm there to play and win, and that's a totally different mindset... But.. I do see others doing similar things without any repercussion.

The significant thing about this hand, was that they were adamant the issue wasn't with my stating a hand, it was about the fact it 'actually was' my hand. I queried this at the time, if for instance I had said i had Kings... but actually had Aces.. that would have been fine!!

Seems screwy to me... if there is a rule it should be no talking about hands or hand content at all... and that would mean obviously speculating about hands at any point which would be ridiculous. EG. somebody puts you all in on the river... there's a flush out there but you have a straight... I've lost count of how many times somebody thinks out loud... I've got a straight but if you got the flush I'm screwed... it's all part of the game IMO... this is just as much fishing for information as declaring your hand.. but AFAIK there is no rule about thinking out loud..

Or... favourite... the statement 'Well I'm definitely folding, I'm just deciding whether to Call or Raise' - if that isn't the verbal equivalent of a string bet I don't know what is... and that's far more devious and 'info-gathering' than stating a hand at the start which nobody should put any weight on at all..

Guess that's why I play the games rather than run them...

Piano
ThePianoman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2010, 09:39 AM   #7
newbie
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 15
Re: Live rules about calling out your hand during the hand?

Quote:
Originally Posted by psandman View Post

and your citation of Jamie Gold's behavior is off base because the WSOP acknowledged that he should have been penalized.

http://www.wsop.com/news/varchive.asp?aid=172

That's good to know... I'm not a big fan of his, but it was the first thing that sprung to mind... more like a 'just wait a second... what about' thing... not a 'well if he can do it, why can't I?' thing...

I would like to aspire to greater things than that.

Thanks for all the responses...

And thanks for not just saying 'you twot'... like I said it was a funny social question that raised a more serious rule/etiquette question.

Piano
ThePianoman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2010, 11:18 AM   #8
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 5,017
Re: Live rules about calling out your hand during the hand?

Your hand should never be penalised for this. Even at the wsop you would receive a 1 lap penalty rather than losing the hand.

Most London venues such as the Vic allow you to say anything you want.
madlondoner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2010, 11:39 AM   #9
veteran
 
DCJ001's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,209
Re: Live rules about calling out your hand during the hand?

You should never be disclosing the contents of your hand when there are more than two players in the hand.
DCJ001 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2010, 11:51 AM   #10
Pooh-Bah
 
bulls_horn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,918
Re: Live rules about calling out your hand during the hand?

From RRoP:

Quote:
22. Showing cards from a live hand during the action injures the rights of other players still competing in an event, who wish to see contestants eliminated. A player in a multihanded pot may not show any cards during a deal. Heads-up, a player may not show any cards unless the event has only two remaining players, or is winner-take-all. If a player deliberately shows a card, the player may be penalized (but his hand will not be ruled dead). Verbally stating one’s hand during the play may be penalized.
bulls_horn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2010, 12:04 PM   #11
newbie
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 15
Re: Live rules about calling out your hand during the hand?

Quote:
Originally Posted by madlondoner View Post
Your hand should never be penalised for this. Even at the wsop you would receive a 1 lap penalty rather than losing the hand.

Most London venues such as the Vic allow you to say anything you want.
I'd love to get a game in down that there London... I used to be down there all the time... but now I got little sprogs, I'm tied to my local area mostly... I hear the Vic is a fantastic crack.



I checked out the Jamie Gold issues.. it seems that he broke the rules on two occassions namely saying 'top top' and exposing one of his cards to get a reaction.

But... the regulators didnt mention the loads of times, he would say specific strength of hands... eg... you got me bluffing.. etc.. or famously the last hand where he has a Queen paired on the flop against Wasicka's 10 10 - when he shoves and Wasicka is thinking about it.. he knows he can't be beating a pair of queens and literally tells him this... he says 'if you haven't got a queen I've got you' - and yet this isn't an infringement?

He famously stated after the event that all the way through he told the truth about his hands... when he had it he said so.. and if he was bluffing he said so... and yet the regulators only picked up on two minor points. Confused.


Gonna go check out the Vic's schedule and see if I can get a day away
ThePianoman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2010, 12:12 PM   #12
newbie
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 15
Re: Live rules about calling out your hand during the hand?

to DCJ001 and Bulls_Horn... at no point did I actually show any cards... merely said preflop from the button "sorry, Aces, gotta raise it up" - That shouldn't really mean I've got aces... and isn't really disclosing my hand surely?

It was only significant because I actually had aces... and the chap who called me didn't beleive I had 'em anyway... and I doubt he would have suspected whether I had said so or not. There's gotta be a difference between actually disclosing what you've got and merely saying.. or grandstanding.

If I had said... to anyone in particular... I got em' with a wink of the eye to really let them off the hook.. that would be collusion.. and I get it... totally out of order. That can't apply here, and again it's the issue that it was actually what I was holding.. if I had won with KK but said I had Aces that apparently is fine o_O
ThePianoman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2010, 12:17 PM   #13
Pooh-Bah
 
bigtex21's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Tunica, Ms.
Posts: 5,038
Re: Live rules about calling out your hand during the hand?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThePianoman View Post
to DCJ001 and Bulls_Horn... at no point did I actually show any cards... merely said preflop from the button "sorry, Aces, gotta raise it up" - That shouldn't really mean I've got aces... and isn't really disclosing my hand surely?

It was only significant because I actually had aces... and the chap who called me didn't beleive I had 'em anyway... and I doubt he would have suspected whether I had said so or not. There's gotta be a difference between actually disclosing what you've got and merely saying.. or grandstanding.

If I had said... to anyone in particular... I got em' with a wink of the eye to really let them off the hook.. that would be collusion.. and I get it... totally out of order. That can't apply here, and again it's the issue that it was actually what I was holding.. if I had won with KK but said I had Aces that apparently is fine o_O
Under TDA rules you should receive a penalty same as showing your cards. If you said you have KK and have AA no penalty but saying AA with AA draws a penalty.
bigtex21 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2010, 12:18 PM   #14
newbie
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 15
Re: Live rules about calling out your hand during the hand?

ah Bulls_Horn.. just read the last line.. my bad..

Strictly speaking then yep.. I'm busted... not sure in the context of how it happened I would have been done for anything there... but that makes sense if you are letting people know very specifically and verbally... not just goofballing around.

Worth knowing though...

Thx

Piano
ThePianoman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2010, 12:20 PM   #15
newbie
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 15
Re: Live rules about calling out your hand during the hand?

And the penalty could be what? Unspecified I guess it could be anything from forfeiture of the hand down to time or hand penalty...?
ThePianoman is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off




All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:15 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.6.0 ©2011, Crawlability, Inc.
Copyright © 2008-2010, Two Plus Two Interactive