Can you provide more precise information regarding how this game is structured?

For example:

What size chips are used?

What is the range of opening limps and/or raises? (example of great detail is the Venetian PLO thread).

Is straddling allowed?

I like Jeff Hwang's books. I appreciate his efforts to popularize Omaha. I despise his unceasing effort to drive small bankrolls out of Omaha games by insisting that dealers cannot count white chips. 1/2 Omaha has been absolutely great every time I have played it. If you put five on the button it's 1-2-5 which plays bigger than 2/5 not smaller. There have to be low stakes games if high stakes games are to grow.

Rick, its the green chips $2, you can open for $8.

Yes you can straddle.

We will still try to run $5/5blinds PLO when theres enough interest.

Horseshoe Hammond game is Fri/Sat only and spotty at that. Usually either 1-2 or 2-5. They got 2-5 and 5-10 going 2 weeks ago during the tournament.

can someone there confirm?

I've never played it but from from what I've read and heard I like Jeff Hwang's "1/2 blinds open for 5-15 no straddle" structure ideas. Not sure how it would work with the devastating California up front drop, The blinds would have to be at least 2/3 which I believe Jeff would have preferred at the Venetian anyway.

Also wonder if a structure using yellow ($5 in LA) chips wouldn't work better. A game of this size would tend to attract a 2/5 blind 100-300 buyin & 5-5 blind 300/500 NLH player i.e., the most popular games at Hustler. A chip color change is a big impediment to drawing from that pool (mostly because players tend to feel they are stepping down and it's a hassle to boot).

Of course most readers here know that a PLO game generally plays much bigger than a NLH game of the of equivalent structure; the problem is that many card room managers and players don't understand it and consequently spread and play games that are too big.

~ Rick

PS If I give the Hustler game a try I'll STFU at the table regarding these opinions (so if I'm quiet it doesn't mean I'm not having fun).

Rick, In Summary I agree that the game should be spread with $5 chips 100%. I wasnt consulted for the creation of the $2/$2 setup. I think it should be $2/$5 blinds with a max open of $20. To keep the game small enough people could have the option to buyin for $300 with a max cap at $1k.

I also agree that when new games of PLO are introduced they are spread too large. The 5/10PLO game I started a while back ended up being much bigger than expected and as a result we had some weak palyers buying in really deep and going broke. There were several pots over $15k.

Summary: I think a $2/5 PLO game $300-1k would be the sweet spot and would be sustainable.

See also the format popularized at the venetian in the game started by jeff hwang. 1/2 blinds, $5 bring in, $15 max open, $500 max. New plo'ers will give it a shot and won't go broke too fast. The $20 open makes for much bigger pots.

We had 2/2 PLO ($8 open) for a long time at oceans 11, but found that the format just doesn't make for a good poker game. It was more like 3/6 holdem where there are 6 people seeing the flop. We recently adopted the 1/2, $5 bring in game, which seems to be doing well. Hope to see u there someday, Rick.

Next time inspired by you I'll make sure I use the word "denomination".


Perhaps my wording could have been more precise but using the Venetian structure advocated by host Jeff Hwang you do in fact limp for an an amount more than the BB. By range I mean opening range between the special limp amount and max raise. Using a 1/2 (or 2/3) blind open limp for $5 PL structure some would round up both blinds meaning the max open raise would be $20. But the Venetian structure (last I heard) counts both blinds as $5 and limits the max open raise to $15. For PLO this (along with not allowing a straddle) and the reasonable buy in range tends to keep the stack to pot ratio relatively high emphasizing deep stack play which Jeff (and I) believe is key to keeping the game fun and interesting. This should attract new players.


Gee, I never get infractions. How is this accomplished?

Thanks for getting back. Essentially agree with the above with small tweaks.

My tweaks (sort of a compromise between Venetian and your suggestion above): Use 2/5 blinds, don't allow a straddle, round both blinds to a single $5 "denomination" which would limit the opening max raise to $15. Keep buyin spread at $200 -$500 (should work well with both $5 BB NL games and still attract the $10 blind NLH players who like Omaha).

I haven't been to Hustler for about a month (playing online more lately) and not sure how things may have changed in recent weeks. One of the last times I played was surprised to see (on a moderately busy night, perhaps a Thursday) the last remaining 300-500 game broken to start a second $10 BB game. At the time thought this was a huge mistake but floor later told me this was what the new manager wanted; i.e., more big games at all costs.

If that's true he's building a pyramid with a base that is bound to disintegrate. That IMO is a classic mistake in the long run.

Your suggestions sound fine; close enough to what I would pick.

In re: to wanting bigger games at all costs, I cant comment. I have no idea what the manegement wants. For selfish reasons I like the idea of more bigger games, but I get your point that it will weaken the base hindering future lower stakes players to take shots while running hot.

Take care,

Zach

Is the game outside of Louisville at Ceasars not going anymore? I played in that game several times trying to turn a tooth pick into a lumber yard, it was a very good game with very good players. Was hoping to ride up one Thursday afternoon to be there for the Friday game.

Re Hustler/LA, I agree that adjusting the game to 1/2/5 or 2/5 PLO, no-straddle, with $300-$1000 buyin would be an excellent move. The green chips are hard to count and really slow down the game.

Count me as one who thinks the game needs to be 1/2 (or 2/2) to gain more acceptance. I played a little of the Venetian's 1/2/5 game last week and even though it's advertised as 1/2 they ain't fooling anyone, everyone who wanders by knows it's a big game. It's too big a game for a 2/5NL player to sit in and take a flyer at. I'm a 5/10NL player primarily (and a winning one at that) and even I'm quite iffy about sitting down at a 2/5 PLO table since I don't have the years of experience under my belt. I didn't start out hold'em by playing 5/10 (or even 2/5 for that matter) so I'm not going to jump right in at 2/5 PLO. And guess what, I am EXACTLY the kind of player that the game needs- I play a lot and I'm not going broke anytime soon.

Everyone who is arguing that the games are best at 2/5 are right for their purposes, coming from people who have experience in the game. But to grow the game, it has to be smaller. Venetian's 1/2/5 won't do it (and that game is a 2/5 no matter how much Jeff or anyone else argues otherwise). They can't even keep that one going; it had broken by 10pm last Saturday and Sunday nights.

the thing is, the game sucks when you're using $1 or $2 chips as the main denominations. trust us, we've played those games. having 6-7 players see the flop every hand cuz "it's only $8" is not good for the game.

LoL is this a level?

Having 7 people see every flop is a bad thing in your world? Can I please play in that game.

First of all, the same limp/call-fest can happen in any game, and at any rate I LOVE a game where everyone plays like lemmings. Second, your view on this misses my point- that the established players in the game are comfortable with a $5 or higher BB but the newer players are not. You're an established player, that's where your view on the subject is coming from. If the game is to grow, it has to start smaller.

And there's no reason why a 1/2 game can't be played with $1 and $5 chips. I'd imagine they all are anyway.

Any new updates for the PLO game at Lucky Chances? When does the game usually start on Sundays?

I'm also curious about this game and any PLO around the Bay area.

It still goes on Wednesdays and Fridays, it's now a 2/5 game with a $2000 max buy in.

I was in Las Vegas last thursday through sunday and checked out the 1/2/5 bring in game at the Venetian.

Was it a fun game? Sure.

Was it smaller than 2/5 with straddles? By Far.

Was there plenty of bad play? Yup.

Was it a small stakes game? A clear, resounding No. At least not by the standards of any small stakes casino players I know. Straddle or no, just one aggressive player can ensure that there are never any really small pots.

I was there when the game started at 9pm-ish, five handed. The table was full fifteen minutes later. When I left three hours later, there was a 4k stack to my left, a 2k stack to my right, and at least two other 1k + stacks at the table.

I don't even think this game caters to the 2/5 no-limit crowd in terms of bankroll survivability.

That said, I hope the game keeps going, because it was very juicy and fun and one day I hope to have the bankroll to sit it more regularly.

On the topic of structuring actually small stakes PLO, I personally think $2 chips could work just fine. At Hawaiian Gardens Casino in LA, they have a $40min/max NL game that uses $2 chips, and the players express their bet sizes in the number of chips, NOT the $ amount.

Don't get me wrong, the $40 min/max game is a crappy, rake-feed-athon structure. The point I am making is that a PLO game where players express there bets sizes by the number of chips rather than the $ amount could make the use of $2 chips much more manageable, not to mention helping poor players ignoe the actuall dollar amounts they are calling off. It would also open up the possibility that we could get PLO games going that LA casinos would actually spread that wouldn't scare off all the casual low stakes NL players.

I know Jeff has repeatedly stated that he doesn't think PLO games that cater to the true low-stakes crowd can be structured. And hey, Jeff is smarter than I am so feel free to disregard what I say in favor of what he says. But I do think we can do it, I just think we the players need to group together to get it going.

Get a rowdy, fun PLO table going on a friday night with a 100 buy in, and the degens in LA cardrooms WILL want to know what the hub-ub is about.

1. Why not have a $1/$1 game with a raise to $4? around 40min/200max buyin. This would have all $1 chips, looks appealing to low limit players, plus players take down huge looking pots.

OR

2. Why not just make it NLPLO at low limits like 1/2? It's not like low limit games often have potsize bets and raises postflop. Makes it easier to deal.

I feel like both these idea are really simplifying and that's important for introducing a new game at low limits.

Yeah.

We have 1/2 now and then here (Charleston, WV), and it goes just fine even with many dealers that rarely if ever deal pot limit. The game uses mostly red chips. We've also at times agreed that a straddle could be $5, which helps.

If anything, a rule that restricts post flop bets to red chips would solve most of the counting problems raised. If we are going to try to attract 1/2 NLHE players to the game, having a 1/2 PLO game strikes me as sorta important.

I'd be willing.

They did this with O8 at Hawaiian Gardens for a while. 1/2 blinds NLO8 with like a 60-100 buy in. They may still be spreading it for all I know. Haven't checked in a while. I thought it was miserable.

Personally, I don't want to play in games where players who pick up AA** hands are able to shove all for $100 at small pots preflop. Or where a player with JJ24 r can shove for any amount when their set flops on a JT2 board. It nullifies a lot of where the edge comes from, kills the implied odds of a lot of big drawing situations, erases bluffing opportunites against bad but halfway competent players, and generally makes the game less pokerish.

But hey, its only my opinion.

It's not just your opinion. Omaha simply has to be played pot limit to be interesting and the structure has to be right. Many clubs fear the dealers can't handle pot limit (and to an extent they're right) so chip denominations and techniques need to be employed to make it as easy as possible.

Every time I play PLO online I see more and more players. The action is good and the game is fun. Meanwhile the NL holdem games continue to get worse. The fact that there isn't a steady PLO game in LA is horrible.

My observation is that Hawaiian Gardens made a huge mistake hiring a host to get the NL Omaha H/L game going. He essentially cannibalized the limit 6/12 Omaha H/L game by taking away their action players. Of course the action players eventually get eaten up in NL Omaha H/L so the end result is less business and one of the meanest, least fun small games in the city. Almost everyone sits there with a frown wondering what happened to the day when the game was good.