I've posted on here before that I disagree with Jeff that PLO needs to be a $5 chip game. Ocean's 11 tried spreading a 2/3, $5 to go game, it went maybe once a month. We decided it was too big and tweaked it, making it $2/$2 blinds, meaning $2 to come in and play with $10 and $2 chips and the game goes every Friday now.

I wouldn't mind tweaking that a bit to use $5 chips instead and play it 2/2 but round up post flop. I think playing with $1 or $2 chips before the flop and even for every street can go just fine.

I have for the first time in my life had the urge to go to IA

Thanks for the interesting and helpful input.

One thing about Ocean's 11 is they somehow are able to do "no flop, no drop" on their mid sized NL (and limit) games and have a pot size qualifier before taking the drop on their baby NL (or so I've been told on the later). This helps a lot when you have occasionally tightish small blind games (and despite PLO's reputation for action, I expect tight periods when the game is initially attracting 2+2 types who's online PT stats are something like 30/7/2.5 for six max or 20/4/2.1 for full ring ).

Also wonder if something like limit BTF and PL after the flop works anywhere.

~ Rick

PS I'm busy this coming week so won't be able to get back for a bit. Perhaps the week after hope to start a thread on a viable structure for the LA area. Jeff (who I've never met) is probably busy at the WSOP but I hope he has all his structure articles available online by then and has time to chime in.

Hey OP,

I've been playing PLO for years. I just came across your book and decided to give it a look. Good stuff from what ive read so far.

Too tired to format quotes properly three levels deep so please forgive my old fashioned lack of style:

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Rick originally wrote:
"Wonder if you read Jeff's article (especially the 2-3 blind with a bring in for $5 to $15 structure) and recognize some of the problems spreading small blind games in LA. Few points:"

PM (Phat Mack) responded:
"I've played PLO in LA at the Bike. I thought the 1-2 game was much better than the 2-5 game, but have very limited experience with public-cardroom PLO in LA. I did see Mr. Hwang's suggestion for a 2-3 structure, but didn't see an argument for it."

Rick re-responds:
I wasn't at the Bike for the smaller games but heard that the action was sporadic; this is obviously one reason it didn't catch.

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Rick originally wrote::
"- "bunch of $1 chips" works well in limit but is a drag in pot limit. Realistically we need to find ways to keep it easy to count the pot."

PM responded:
"OK, I may be missing your point, but to make sure that we're on the same page here, in PL the pot isn't counted by physically counting the chips. It's counted as the bets are made. If the pot was $25, and the bet is $25, the pot is now $50. Betting with one chip or 25 chips shouldn't speed up or slow down the count."

Rick re-responds:
Most of my PL experience was when Hollywood Park used to use PL for their 5-5 $500 min buy big bet holdem game in the back of top section. The dealer was constantly asked to count the pot (or the players would say "pot" when they wanted to lead bet not knowing how big the pot really was). This all seemed hard in $5 increments and would be harder using $1 chips where players could use odd betting sequences.

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Rick originally wrote:
"... straddle changes the SPRs and can tighten up the game and make it play too big; i.e., it really isn't needed for action."

PM responded:
"Straddles can tighten the game ... if one wants to see the flop cheap, flop the nuts with the nut re-draw, and then get one's stack in. Ever notice how the nits start steaming when the straddling starts? There are players who want to play big pots, and there are players who want to see 7/9 of their hand before the commit much money. Which is the cardroom trying to attract with a PLO game? (Not meant as a rhetorical question, it could use some discussion.)"

Rick re-responds:
There are all sorts of ways an otherwise good game like PLO can nit up in a low to mid sized B&M game. Anyway, agree it's worth a discussion. It's simply a shame that the biggest poker city in the world doesn't have a regular mid sized PLO game.

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PM wrote:
Here's a telling quote from the article:

5. PLO is meant to be played after the flop, and as such is meant to be played with relatively deep stacks.

Actually, the more that goes in before the flop, the higher the variance. Variance favors the action player, the player a cardroom wants to attract if it's spreading PLO.

Rick re-responds:
There are different types of variance (I think!). PLO for me online is fun because I get to play both "big pot BTF" and "make a big pot postflop" games at a game size I can afford. It seems live in LA I could only play the former (with 5-5 blinds) and ended up playing like a nit. I really hate playing like a nit but sometimes that's all I can manage due to the structure.

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Rick originally wrote:
"- in LA they drop everything on the flop. This makes the bigger blind, smaller buyin games a necessity to keep the drop from getting even uglier than it is."

PM responded:
"I don't understand the relationship between the drop and the buy-in, or why a smaller buyin would be helpful."

Rick re-responds:
What matters is the right size and shape structure along with other things that will attracting the action giving type of player base. The big thing in LA for a NL or PL game is you need to find a way to generate reasonably big multiway pots BTF.

Quick example: Let's say the blinds are 1-2-2 (from your other post) and you can limp for $2 . Sometimes (or perhaps often) the game is going to be tightish. In a tightish game we get let's say two limpers and the blinds complete/check. The pot is $10 and we get a flop. The players wait out the dealer (as I did in this shameless link to an old story) . In this case have the pot is whacked in half and we have a miserable looking $5 left (rather than the "beautiful $1 chip" in my story). It's not as pathetic as my story but still pretty pathetic. My guess is this would be anathema to a potential customer coming from the online world of drop 5% on thresholds with a cap and rakeback or VPPs.

Instead let's say we have $2-3 blinds with a $5 bring in as Jeff suggests. One player brings in, one overcalls (flats?), and the blinds complete. It's a four way pot instead of five way as in the previous example but now we have $20 to carve out the five dollar drop. Now it's only half as pathetic according to my pathetic math.

I won't have time for 2+2 for a week but still hope to start (or contribute to) a decent thread on the whole matter of getting sustainable mid sized PLO going in LA.

Anyway, thanks for your time responding. Sorry I was tardy getting back.

~ Rick

man i hate donkfests...i want my edge to be as small ass possible to avoid variance

Unfortunately my schedule doesn't allow me to make the 2.5 hour drive Thursdays to play in this game. I have no idea if it is still going or not so you may want to call ahead

I thought it would be prudent to post a quote of Jeff's here since it give so very sound reasoning behind his choices:

"I'll just speak from the perspective of someone who probably has more experience than anyone else on the planet in playing with various small-stakes PLO game structures, from straight $1/$2, straight $1/$2 where the first guy can bring it in for $10, $1/$2 with a $5 Mississippi Straddle, $1/$2 blinds with a $5 bring-in, $1/$3 and $2/$3, to $1/$2/$5 (three blinds).

PLO has got to be a red-chip game after the flop. The fact is that all but the most experienced players have difficulty tracking the size of the pot, even at $5/$5 and $5/$10. Novice players (and dealers) are far worse. In fact, one of the most intimidating aspects of picking up PLO in live cardrooms for the average player is simply figuring out how much to bet. It is complicated enough figuring out bets, raises, and re-raises even in $5 dollar increments. And trying to figure out white chip amounts only makes things that much more complicated, particularly when the dealer is taking out rake while the hand is being played.

As for playing with a $5 bring-in, I'll say two things. The first is that it is not feasible to structure a live game with chips and cards in such a way as to cater to $1/$2 NL players, and playing straight $1/$2 PLO does not solve that problem, because it is probalby going to play bigger than $1/$2 anyway -- particularly if you allow a straddle. So we'll ignore the $1/$2 NL players for a moment. But in catering to $2/$5 NL players, playing with $1/$2 blinds and a $5 bring-in works wonders.

Playing with a $5 bring-in is not the same as playing $2/$5 PLO. Having less money in the pot theoretically should create smaller pots pre-flop, making for a smaller game. This is because the pre-flop raises should theoretically be smaller because there is less money in the pot before the flop, and because the blinds should be less apt to defend against a raise, creating smaller, short-handed pots on the flop.

In practice, it doesn't always work this way, depending on who is in the game. That said, regardless, I know from experience that playing with a separate $5 bring-in works in catering to $2/$5 NL players. In fact, we had a $1/$2 with $5 bring-in game running EVERY SINGLE DAY in St. Louis from June of last year through at least the end of the year, to go along wiht the $5/$10 PLO game that ran twice a week. (That worked at least until they quit playing $5/$10, changed it to $2/$5 PLO, quit playing the $1/$2 with $5 bring-in and priced out the smaller players, after which the new $2/$5 game started to run only four days a week).

That said, in my experience, the two structures that have worked best in sustaining a game at $500-max are straight $2/$3 and $1/$2 with a $5 bring-in. And the one structure that has worked best at $200-max (aimed at $1/$2 NL players) is the $0.50/$1 ($100-min/$200-max) PLO game that I host every Thursday on the PokerPro electronic tables at the Excalibur in Las Vegas. "

A thought just hit me. If you wanted to make a PLO game that would cater to 1/2 no limit hold 'em players, why not spread a 1/1 game with only red chips playing after the flop (with the pot getting rounded up to the nearest red chip on the flop).

From my experience with live poker, this game would be action central. For "just a buck" the typical B&M player is going to play over 50% of his hands if a raise is unlikely. This structure seems to allow for lots of postflop play without pots getting too big for people accustomed to 1/2NL.

Rake issues probably wouldn't make this work in LA, but it could definitely take off in Vegas.

I was thinking about doing this EXACT same thing for our home game. Thoughts on buy-in spread?

(I guess in the event of a sub-$10 pot you would be able to bet in white chip increments.)

Just rounding up to $10 (or $5 if the pot is really small) would probably make things go faster.

Meh, my way's better.

Woody's Bar & Grill, Wyoming, MI (Charity Poker Room)
Sunday's @ 7:00pm, (or earlier)

1/2 PLO or Round by Round, $100 min / $300 max Buyin.

Does this still run?

just called up there, this no longer runs. I was told they now play 15/30 O/8 on Thursdays instead. F me, I was going to go crush.