Too tired to format quotes properly three levels deep so please forgive my old fashioned lack of style:
Rick originally wrote:
"Wonder if you read Jeff's article (especially the 2-3 blind with a bring in for $5 to $15 structure) and recognize some of the problems spreading small blind games in LA. Few points:"
PM (Phat Mack) responded:
"I've played PLO in LA at the Bike. I thought the 1-2 game was much better than the 2-5 game, but have very limited experience with public-cardroom PLO in LA. I did see Mr. Hwang's suggestion for a 2-3 structure, but didn't see an argument for it."
I wasn't at the Bike for the smaller games but heard that the action was sporadic; this is obviously one reason it didn't catch.
Rick originally wrote::
"- "bunch of $1 chips" works well in limit but is a drag in pot limit. Realistically we need to find ways to keep it easy to count the pot."
"OK, I may be missing your point, but to make sure that we're on the same page here, in PL the pot isn't counted by physically counting the chips. It's counted as the bets are made. If the pot was $25, and the bet is $25, the pot is now $50. Betting with one chip or 25 chips shouldn't speed up or slow down the count."
Most of my PL experience was when Hollywood Park used to use PL for their 5-5 $500 min buy big bet holdem game in the back of top section. The dealer was constantly asked to count the pot (or the players would say "pot" when they wanted to lead bet not knowing how big the pot really was). This all seemed hard in $5 increments and would be harder using $1 chips where players could use odd betting sequences.
Rick originally wrote:
"... straddle changes the SPRs and can tighten up the game and make it play too big; i.e., it really isn't needed for action."
"Straddles can tighten the game ... if one wants to see the flop cheap, flop the nuts with the nut re-draw, and then get one's stack in. Ever notice how the nits start steaming when the straddling starts? There are players who want to play big pots, and there are players who want to see 7/9 of their hand before the commit much money. Which is the cardroom trying to attract with a PLO game? (Not meant as a rhetorical question, it could use some discussion.)"
There are all sorts of ways an otherwise good game like PLO can nit up in a low to mid sized B&M game.
Anyway, agree it's worth a discussion. It's simply a shame that the biggest poker city in the world doesn't have a regular mid sized PLO game.
Here's a telling quote from the article:
5. PLO is meant to be played after the flop, and as such is meant to be played with relatively deep stacks.
Actually, the more that goes in before the flop, the higher the variance. Variance favors the action player, the player a cardroom wants to attract if it's spreading PLO.
There are different types of variance (I think!). PLO for me online is fun because I get to play both "big pot BTF" and "make a big pot postflop" games at a game size I can afford. It seems live in LA I could only play the former (with 5-5 blinds) and ended up playing like a nit. I really hate playing like a nit but sometimes that's all I can manage due to the structure.
Rick originally wrote:
"- in LA they drop everything on the flop. This makes the bigger blind, smaller buyin games a necessity to keep the drop from getting even uglier than it is."
"I don't understand the relationship between the drop and the buy-in, or why a smaller buyin would be helpful."
What matters is the right size and shape structure along with other things that will attracting the action giving type of player base. The big thing in LA for a NL or PL game is you need to find a way to generate reasonably big multiway pots BTF.
Quick example: Let's say the blinds are 1-2-2 (from your other post) and you can limp for $2 . Sometimes (or perhaps often) the game is going to be tightish. In a tightish game we get let's say two limpers and the blinds complete/check. The pot is $10 and we get a flop. The players wait out the dealer (as I did in this shameless link to an old story
. In this case have the pot is whacked in half and we have a miserable looking $5 left (rather than the "beautiful $1 chip" in my story). It's not as pathetic as my story but still pretty pathetic. My guess is this would be anathema to a potential customer coming from the online world of drop 5% on thresholds with a cap and rakeback or VPPs.
Instead let's say we have $2-3 blinds with a $5 bring in as Jeff suggests. One player brings in, one overcalls (flats?), and the blinds complete. It's a four way pot instead of five way as in the previous example but now we have $20 to carve out the five dollar drop. Now it's only half as pathetic according to my pathetic math.
I won't have time for 2+2 for a week but still hope to start (or contribute to) a decent thread on the whole matter of getting sustainable mid sized PLO going in LA.
Anyway, thanks for your time responding. Sorry I was tardy getting back.