The Latest Angle Shots - Page 3 - Poker Card Room

starrazz · 06-04-2012, 03:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by albedoa

starrazz: is it correct for us to interpret your posts to mean that sometime in the future, you are going to intentionally make a bet with a high-denomination chip sandwiched between low-denomination chips in an attempt to trick another player?

I don't think you should do that.

(And if you think that it's okay to do, then why wouldn't you do it every time the opportunity presents itself?)

I won't, I'm not good at recognizing opportunity to do that and jumping on it. I'm so focused on the actual poker and reading tells and not giving them off that I wouldn't try to mix up the chips. I'd only confuse myself, and it's not worth the negative aspects long term in this case. So you got me.

dgiharris · 06-04-2012, 03:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by starrazz

There is so much wrong with this story and the perspective with which it is told that my head hurts.

First of all, if this is an angle shot, it is a pretty lame one, let alone some nuclear level angle. Any kindergartner 3/6 limit player would see through this. You just happened to witness someone who wasn't at that level yet. I guess V2 has nothing to lose by trying it, but only if he is prepared to fold.

Which brings me to my other head-hurting thought: What the hell is he folding the nut straight? If V1 has the flush, he has the flush, I'm sorry, but I go broke on this hand, and if you don't then you're a nit.

So when V2 tables his hand, you're saying that V1 should have said, "so is that a call or a muck?" Why should V1 have to say anything?

This is how it would go down if I had been V1 and snap shoved the river:

V1: Snap shoves river
V2: Tables hand
V1: Sits silently and stares through his sunglasses, waiting for V2 to make his action. I ain't saying ****. I don't want to give off any possible tells. The action is still on V2.

By the way, in some casinos, if you display your hand in a tournament or a cash game or both, the hand is dead. Indian casinos are notorious for having super strict rules like these that have no rational basis, even when heads-up and no further action is possible. I want to be able to turn over my hand when I am V2 in the case I can get a read off V1. I might get lucky and get the world's worst poker player, who turns over his bluff, giving me the opportunity to say "call."

This isn't an angle shot so much as just V1 is an idiot for not waiting for V2 to perform his action before turning over his cards. ESPECIALLY since V1 is bluffing!

Basically, what I get off this post is you are awesome and anyone who is not as awesome as you are is an idiot.

I posted this angle shot (and that is EXACTLY WHAT IT IS) because i've seen it increasing in frequency in both tournaments and cash games.

The turn over is always done in an "ambiguous" manner that can be construed as a call or a fold while giving the angle shooter deniability if his opponent shows a better hand.

This angle shot is employed at a crucial BIG MONEY situation. In the case of the tournament, that river is not a "clear call" by live tournament players by any stretch and the angle shooter would have folded had V1 kept his mouth shut.

One of the most memorable times I saw this in the cash game was in 5/10nl for a $3k shove on a A K K Q 2 board.

Angle shooter had AK, opponent had AA. Pot was about $1K on river, Angle shooter bets $700 opponent shoves $3k, Angle shooter says, "You can't bluff me this time" and turns over his hand and says "Boom I got you!" . Opponent says, "Nope, I got you" and turns over his AA and the Angle shooter says, "I never said call..."

In any event, even though i've never fallen for it, I thought this type of angle shot was worth posting since it seems to work a high % of the time.

starrazz · 06-04-2012, 03:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dgiharris

For cash games, its 50/50

For tournaments, most casinos DON'T allow you to show cards at any point other than showdown regardless if its heads up

In any event, reason I posted this is I've seen this numerous times going both ways by the angle shooter. I've seen instances where they fold citing they were "never" calling and instances where they were "obviously" calling once their opponents show the losing hand.

And they'll continue to do that in rooms where it doesn't kill their hand. They have nothing to lose. Even if 9 out of 10 V1's just sit there and wait for V2 to act, V2 makes +EV on the 1 out of 10 that flips over his cards too soon.

In fact, I'm going to incorporate it into my game now. Why not?

Tomark · 06-04-2012, 03:07 AM

I would appreciate if someone were to create a sticky with most major angleshoot variations. Im bringing my sis to the casino this weekend, and tried to give her a primer of all the major angles, and couldnt really remember most of them.

I find myself reading these B&M posts all the time for exactly this reason. I think the golden rule is "until the chips go in the middle, or the dealer says it's a call, dont show your cards, and once its a call, show your cards no matter what the other guy says he has."

dgiharris · 06-04-2012, 03:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PardoG

Surprised no one has commented on the dealers role here in this case

Remember, dealers are often times on auto-pilot and the angle shot works on them as well since the "intent" of the angle shooter is to come off as a "call".

Of course, good dealers are able to prevent these sorts of angle shots, but good dealers are not the norm. Not to say that most dealers are bad. Just saying that if this angle shot is done well, then alot of times it sneaks under the radar of the dealers auto-pilot and they miss it.

Similarly, the opponent usually acts fairly quickly becuase he interprets the angle shot as a call. And since emotions are running high, opponents can't wait to turn over that winning hand, or are disappointed/embarressed and can't wait to muck the losing hand. Both work in the angle shooter's favor.

starrazz · 06-04-2012, 03:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dgiharris

One of the most memorable times I saw this in the cash game was in 5/10nl for a $3k shove on a A K K Q 2 board.

Angle shooter had AK, opponent had AA. Pot was about $1K on river, Angle shooter bets $700 opponent shoves $3k, Angle shooter says, "You can't bluff me this time" and turns over his hand and says "Boom I got you!" . Opponent says, "Nope, I got you" and turns over his AA and the Angle shooter says, "I never said call..."

I love it. I'm definitely going to try that when I have a non-nuts monster in a big pot where they shove into me and I have a decision. Why not? It's not an angle shot to GIVE information to your opponent. Especially when he can't do anything with it anyway--he's all in! How is it shooting an angle? Hell all of poker is one big angle shot then.

dgiharris · 06-04-2012, 03:25 AM

I guess it depends on your definition of an angle shot.

To me, an angle shot is when you intentionally try to decieve your opponent by breaching the rules or proper ettiquete. Its basically coming as close to cheating as possible without cheating.

However, there are always those that believe that as long as they aren't technically cheating than whatever they are doing is okay.

PardoG · 06-04-2012, 10:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dgiharris

Remember, dealers are often times on auto-pilot and the angle shot works on them as well since the "intent" of the angle shooter is to come off as a "call".

Of course, good dealers are able to prevent these sorts of angle shots, but good dealers are not the norm. Not to say that most dealers are bad. Just saying that if this angle shot is done well, then alot of times it sneaks under the radar of the dealers auto-pilot and they miss it.

Similarly, the opponent usually acts fairly quickly becuase he interprets the angle shot as a call. And since emotions are running high, opponents can't wait to turn over that winning hand, or are disappointed/embarressed and can't wait to muck the losing hand. Both work in the angle shooter's favor.

very true, I guess my expectations of dealers is too high? I wonder what kind of training dealers get as far as angles and what to look out for etc if anything at all?

Mr Rick · 06-04-2012, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dgiharris

...
V1 should not have tabled his hand until V2 said call. V1 should have said, "so is that a call or a muck" and V2 would have mucked.

Normally I don't condone angle shots, but if I was V1 i would have said "I win!!!" then I would get less and less excited and whisper to the guy next to me "did V2 call?". Then I would either say nothing or ask the dealer if V2 called. Whichever I thought would be more likely to get V2 to argue that he was folding and never called.

If I did have the flush, I would reach for my cards as if to muck them. And then hesitate as if unclear if that constituted a call. Then I would casually put my cards back under my card protector and wait.

No matter what the final outcome I would call the Floor over to issue a one round penalty to V2 for exposing his hand while action was pending. This is standard in most tournaments. And by action pending I mean that there was still action pending.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrFizzbin

Clearly the op never read super system because Doyle explains that in cash games he'd show a card to get a read, this just the tournament variation on the theme.

The only problem is in tournaments it's not proper to expose your hand with pending action.

In most cases it should result in the player with a straight losing the hand.

I know in Indiana it's an automatic 1 round penalty whether it's accidental or intentional.

I have never seen nor heard of a hand being killed in a tourney for being flipped with action pending. Generally its a one round penalty the first time. I've never seen a second time violation but I would guess a guy could get tossed from a tourney.

Quote:

Originally Posted by starrazz

And they'll continue to do that in rooms where it doesn't kill their hand. They have nothing to lose. Even if 9 out of 10 V1's just sit there and wait for V2 to act, V2 makes +EV on the 1 out of 10 that flips over his cards too soon.

In fact, I'm going to incorporate it into my game now. Why not?

You will get a one round penalty for doing this with action pending in a tournament in almost any cardroom in the US. It may be worth it in a key spot but if it doesn't work it could cost you the tourney...

Quote:

Originally Posted by starrazz

I love it. I'm definitely going to try that when I have a non-nuts monster in a big pot where they shove into me and I have a decision. Why not? It's not an angle shot to GIVE information to your opponent. Especially when he can't do anything with it anyway--he's all in! How is it shooting an angle? Hell all of poker is one big angle shot then.

An angle is always about deception. But deception is not usually about an angle. Poker is about deception.

You can make angle shooting part of your repertoire but then you will lose the respect of most of the people you play with. Your choice about who you want to be.

FlatTireSuited · 06-04-2012, 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tomark

I would appreciate if someone were to create a sticky with most major angleshoot variations. Im bringing my sis to the casino this weekend, and tried to give her a primer of all the major angles, and couldnt really remember most of them.

I find myself reading these B&M posts all the time for exactly this reason. I think the golden rule is "until the chips go in the middle, or the dealer says it's a call, dont show your cards, and once its a call, show your cards no matter what the other guy says he has."

It's hard to explain every one....or even most of the big ones. When I first took my wife to a casino, I ran over a few basic ones, but told her the two most important things are first, if ever confused or flustered or unsure whats going on...just ask the dealer about whatever you are unsure about, and two, to always protect your hand until the dealer says to you "show down" or "table your hand", in which case table your hand even if someone else has tabled a better one (this actually also helps her because you'd be amazed how many bad players over-compensate to my wife's tabling a crappy hand that has no business being at showdown).

Those two guidelines pretty much prevent any angle from working on a n00b. Although admittedly, I'm sure there are places with dealers so bad that the first of the two guidelines won't help at all.

starrazz · 06-04-2012, 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Rick

You will get a one round penalty for doing this with action pending in a tournament in almost any cardroom in the US. It may be worth it in a key spot but if it doesn't work it could cost you the tourney...

I don't play tournaments.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Rick

You can make angle shooting part of your repertoire but then you will lose the respect of most of the people you play with. Your choice about who you want to be.

I disagree that the mere act of turning one's hand over face up should warrant a penalty in this situation where no one is yet to act except the person turning his hand over face up.

I further disagree that this constitutes an angle shot.

If people want to get all high and mighty on me and disrespect me because I turned my cards over face up in a cash game heads up last to act, then I could not care less about their opinion of me anyway.

Respect is optional.
Friendliness is gravy.
Winning is mandatory.

lawdude · 06-05-2012, 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dgiharris

I guess it depends on your definition of an angle shot.

To me, an angle shot is when you intentionally try to decieve your opponent by breaching the rules or proper ettiquete. Its basically coming as close to cheating as possible without cheating.

However, there are always those that believe that as long as they aren't technically cheating than whatever they are doing is okay.

If it helps, the classic definition of angle shooting is to do something that is at least arguably within the rules, but which is palpably unfair to the other player(s).

In other words, marking cards, for instance, isn't an angle. It's just cheating.

An example of an angle is deliberately pretending to fold out of turn, in an attempt to get the dealer to give you your cards back and say it's not your turn, and thereafter inducing a bet from your opponent which you then raise with the nuts. You can argue no rule was violated there- action out of turn is not binding if the action is clarified before anyone else acts- but it's still trying to gain an unfair advantage.

The thing is, because people disagree about what advantages are unfair, angle shooters are always able to deny that this is what they are doing.

wheelflush · 06-05-2012, 08:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrokeDonk

had someone try that on me. I immediately asked for clarification over whether he called or not. He finally relented and said he calls, i turn over my winning hand.

I would not ask the floor to kill the hand unless my hand was good of course. And even then, I would try to ask him privately.
If my hand is good I'm going to just ask the dealer, "Do I have to show now?" Villain will happily call.

FlatTireSuited · 06-05-2012, 08:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lawdude

If it helps, the classic definition of angle shooting is to do something that is at least arguably within the rules, but which is palpably unfair to the other player(s).

The thing is, because people disagree about what advantages are unfair, angle shooters are always able to deny that this is what they are doing.

[Puts on lawyer hat]

I would think that the focus of Amy definition should be not whether it is palpably unfair to other players, but rather, on the fact that it's essentially abusing the procedures of the game. It's not whether it's unfair, but rather whether the action is outside the spirit of the law/game while being within the letter of the law/game.

Any game/competition needs procedures in order to allow for the competitors to accomplish the desired objectives. And inevitably, said rules will allow for abuse. A football team that intentionally fakes injuries to slow the game down is not really doing something "palpably unfair", but that's an angle shot if I've ever seen one - the rule is there to allow for injured players to be properly attended to, not for a team to slow the other team down intentionally.

You still will have debates, but it's not over what is unfair, but rather what is outsid the spirit of the game (which to me is essentially players betting on whether their hand is the best, and then if at least two people remain when betting is over, awarding the pot to the best hand).

ganstaman · 06-05-2012, 11:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by starrazz

I disagree that the mere act of turning one's hand over face up should warrant a penalty in this situation where no one is yet to act except the person turning his hand over face up.

I further disagree that this constitutes an angle shot.

What you somehow have been missing every time you read the other posts was that the manner in which the hand was turned over was meant to appear to be a call while still retaining the possibility of folding. Just turning over your hand is one thing. Doing it like this is another. One is clearly an angle as it's meant to deceive through the procedure of the game, and the other is more or less acceptable (except where explicitly against the rules).