When you are the wronged party, you are not a third party.

If you witness Seat 5 whispering while you're not in the hand, you're right, you are the third party and you should speak through the dealer.

And as far as being friendly, let me try explaining one more time from a slightly different angle. As a non-employee, you have the freedom to give someone "an out" (not outs like a poker out, but an escape route). The dealer doesn't. The dealer will enforce a written rule, and Seat 5 will be defensive. If you approach in a friendly way and offer an out, they will gladly take it.

For example, "I know you weren't talking about the hand but they can't tell that from the cameras so ..." is a total lie - the dude was cheating and he knows it but he can take the out and feign ignorance.

And if people do get pissy, then you can always call the dealer or floor to lay down what you know's going to happen - a graceless recitation of the rules, followed by a blatant lie from Seat 5 of what he whispered. So you've lost nothing relative to going to the dealer first.

OK, I guess there's no point in going around and around on this. When someone talks to someone in a hand, the dealer should immediately stop it. Right then. It's his job. He's not the third party or the remedy of second choice. He's the primary guy to do it. Even if I'm in the hand, as I may not want to talk or whatever. IMO.

And in my experience, I have seen far, far more instances when if the player tries to make the correction, that it escalates to the "who the **** are you" or "the dealer doesn't have a problem with it" exchange than if the dealer does it. Because even the ****heads know it's the dealers job to enforce the rules.

But I guess where you play it's different, and people respond to players enforcing rules better than when dealers do it, and they have no respect for the dealer. In that case, I guess doing it yourself would be better. But that's just not how I've seen it play out most often. I've seen way more instances of a floor needing to be called because a player made the correction compared to when the dealer does. Many people have a real ego problem and take offense when a player corrects them (right or wrong) as compared to the dealer. At least where I play.

So I guess our different experiences have led us to different conclusions on this topic.

I agree he should. But as you know, he often doesn't. So what then are your options?

I also agree that this can happen. That's why I advocate going through the dealer. It works both ways. The dealer is protected because "the help" is doing what he's told instead of getting uppity, and the player is protected because the dealer is taking the brunt of the reaction. It's a weird bit of psychology, but in my experience at least, it seems to work well.

Even if it's just one a-hole every 5000 hands, that's still once a month. Something doesn't have to be frequent for it to make an impression. Intermittent reinforcement is the basis of all gambling, after all.

I agree, but many people also look down on dealers, because they're just service workers. There's no one perfect solution. That's why I like the double insulation of asking the dealer to intervene.



By and large my room is pretty good. Almost everybody is friendly, and almost all players are regs. But at the same time, most dealers are very weak, and don't speak very good English. Plus, the floor has no power to kick somebody out without going through a lot of red tape, so only the most egregious offences are addressed. But still, it's a pleasant place to play, and one of my favourite rooms I've worked.

I'm a "dummy up and deal" kind of dealer. I'm not a bro. I'm not a cool kid. For the young guys, I'm not young enough to be a peer, but not old enough to be a parental figure. I'm also one of the only dealers who enforces OPTAH. And even though it's only a select few players who cause me grief, goddamn do I sometimes just want to throw up my hands and say "screw it, nobody else seems to care, and I have no effect, so why bother?"

I actually had an entire table stage a mutiny and refuse to play if I dealt any more. There was one player who was being especially problematic with following action. Other players actually complained to me that I wasn't doing enough to keep the game running. Slow-poke's buddy at the table, Mr. Alpha, was someone who thrives in the angles. He's actually said he's proud of that. But it's death by a thousand paper cuts. Anyway, he and his buddy started whispering their cards to each other while in a hand. I asked them to stop, they denied doing anything. Mr. Alpha took issue with me, and then harped on me for trying to keep slow-poke focused on the game. Other players at the table who wanted to be bros with Alpha - the same players who previously wanted me to speed up the game - now started criticizing me for being too pushy.

Of course, all upper management sees is that I tend to have problems at my tables, because I'm the only one trying to enforce these rules. They don't give a crap about the other 5000 hands with no problem. All they see is that other dealers don't have reports written about their tables, and I have one every couple of months. What's my incentive to continue? I'd get along better with everybody if I just stopped giving a ****.

So anyway, that's why many dealers don't enforce these rules.

Pfap-thanks for an interesting insiders look into the way some poker rooms operate. TBH, I feel bad that you or any dealer has to work in conditions like that and with so little support from the floors. I'm really surprised that your floors have to go through so much red tape to kick a guy out. Ours can do it without any consultation with anyone, and use that power quickly. They have a low threshold for anyone who is disruptive or abusive.

I'm curious what city you deal in? Can you share that? I know different areas have different environments. For example, back in the 80s and 90s, My wife and I went to casinos and played pit games on vacations, mostly in Vegas, Reno and Lake Tahoe. Then once we went to AC, and man, was it different. The people playing seemed surly and rude; they rarely tipped; and generally speaking the casinos had almost a sullen feel to them vs the party atmosphere of people skiing and gambling at Lake Tahoe. So in response to that, the dealers were equally sullen, rude and depressing.

That trip was in 1982, and I havent been back to AC since. So I'm wondering if you deal in a party type location or more of a people playing with their rent money type place. I think in Tampa we have more of the happy tourist types, which may influence the attitudes of everyone.

two bad players helping each other in a hand doesnt improve the chances of one making a better decision. i let them whisper all they want. who knows what he said. likely said you were a tight player and shouldnt call your bet. but the big pair guy couldnt fold his hand like most players with a big pair.
unless its a good player or a nit i dont try to run players off of overpairs often.

What bothers me more is when the two "whisperers" loudly whisper (enough for half of the table to hear) what they think I am holding... had a guy do it one night, advising his buddy about what action to take against me and telling him what he thought I had. I was pretty steamed. The dealer did tell him to stop -- he just kept at it more quietly.

So I waited... finally I was in a big hand with him... he had the nut flush.. I had the nut boat.. he stacked off against me and lost his $300+ stack (at $1/2). I confess -- I smirked and said "I guess you didn't know what I had this time". He shut up after that...

I used to play in a home game where table talk was the rule of the land. And it was AWESOME.

Poker is a game of information. And there is no better information than knowing what someone thinks about you. Why would I want to shut them up, when I can exploit it to my advantage? Sure, maybe it affects a hand here and there, but as you realized, Queen, you were able to get a LOT more from him later. Your only mistake was shaming him.

This is not to say I feel everybody should violate OPTAH. What I'm saying is that if it's going on, to stay one step ahead. It can be quite profitable to know exactly how people view you.

not much you can do about the table talk. but it does hurt the games as it makes people think more during the hands. and many are forced to learn things from those that have to tell all they know to impress people how smart they are.

Hard spot. Considering you are semibluffing, I would throw a death stare at Seat 5. If you have the nuts, I would for sure make a big deal out of it.

Afterwards, hire Chuck Norris to take care of seat 5 and put the dealer on a tipping probation.

Ja ja