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| Brick and Mortar Discussions of brick and mortar gambling venues |
07-31-2012, 12:49 PM
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#16
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old hand
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,762
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Re: Was I over the line with my table talk?
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Originally Posted by JustPlayingSmart
....I know that some people on this forum think poker is an out-and-out war and that basically anything is fair game, but after the hand I felt really dirty about what I did. The guy was a nice gentleman who believed that I was trying to do him a kindness, and I certainly took advantage of that. Am I overreacting, or was this something the average player would consider too much?
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I do NOT think that "poker is an out-and-out war and that basically anything is fair game"; but I certainly think that what you did was within the bounds of acceptable poker behavior. Table talk has been part of the game forever (at least in the US).
You have to decide if you want to play a "nice [and probably inexperienced] gentleman" this way, but that's entirely up to you.
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07-31-2012, 01:55 PM
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#17
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centurion
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: San Jose
Posts: 142
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Re: Was I over the line with my table talk?
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Originally Posted by dgiharris
meh, its fine.
Of course, you may feel a bit dirty afterwards but tbh, it really isn't a big deal. Poker is more than just the cards a poker chatter is part of the game.
I'm in a hand against a very seasoned veteran and I go for the bluff on the river and he raises me and says similar to you, "save your money, i got lucky on the river." which makes me happy because I know the guy is a soulless douche who would sell his mother into bondage for an easy buck. So, I shove over the top and he snap folds...
Talk is part of the game. So I find it kind of silly to distinguish between good talk and bad talk when the INTENTION OF ALL POKER TALK IS DECEPTION.
So no problem with what you did.
its part of the game and I do this to scared money noobs all the time...
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Wow, you are such a poker stud.
Sheesh man, did we really need that story??
Its a douche move, but acceptable.
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07-31-2012, 04:11 PM
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#18
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Carpal \'Tunnel
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 8,865
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Re: Was I over the line with my table talk?
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Originally Posted by donkitall
Sheesh man, did we really need that story??
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It's worthwhile, because it demonstrates that unless you're a very seasoned player AND an expert at table talk, it's probably better to just STFU in these spots. Good players are likely to see through it.
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07-31-2012, 05:54 PM
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#19
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enthusiast
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 87
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Re: Was I over the line with my table talk?
It's not horrible or anything, but I don't really like it... and you obviously don't either, otherwise you wouldn't feel bad about it. I would suggest that your instinct that there was something slightly unethical about your table talk (or at least re: your personal code of ethics) is correct, and that heeding that instinct in the future is probably the best +life-ev move.
That said, **** happens and nobody's perfect. I can remember a couple of things I did at the table in the heat of the moment that make me cringe... we're all human, so my advice is let go of any guilt as it's really not some huge deal, but still try to be careful not to do that sort of thing again.
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07-31-2012, 09:31 PM
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#20
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adept
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 919
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Re: Was I over the line with my table talk?
I personally detest that sort of talk.
I'm fine with "fold it", "save your money", "careful now", etc etc
But I do not like "yes, I have a set of Q". That is flat out lying. Some say so it slowplaying and check raising. Those people are wrong. Playing deceptively is a necessary part of the game. It's basically the same thing as the quarterback extending the ball to the running back before dropping back to pass. It's standard, it's respectable.
What you did is not, IMO.
Recall the recent thread where a guy in a big tourney basically had the nuts. He threw out a raise on the turn, but verbalized "call". He said "sorry, call, call, meant call." He then called the floor over to see if he could get it changed to a call. The floor came over and told the table that this guy had done this twice already and both times had the nuts.
Now, what the floor did was wrong. But it just goes to show you how douchey of a move it was, if the floor was compelled to do something like that. I look at your move similarly.
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08-02-2012, 12:43 AM
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#21
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veteran
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,281
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Re: Was I over the line with my table talk?
Bah! Enough with the "...well, you were a bit of a douche..." talk.
You outplayed your opponent. Gg, Op
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08-02-2012, 02:41 PM
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#22
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grinder
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 512
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Re: Was I over the line with my table talk?
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Originally Posted by bulls_horn
Bah! Enough with the "...well, you were a bit of a douche..." talk.
You outplayed your opponent. Gg, Op
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This, you told a fish a lie to win his money - profit usually comes from fish.
You (I assume) play poker to win. You can use anything within the rules to accomplish this IMO.
Well done, but if you feel bad just don't lie at the poker table anymore, tell the truth so your hand will be killed!
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08-02-2012, 11:41 PM
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#23
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journeyman
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 386
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Re: Was I over the line with my table talk?
Yeah I won't lie on a poker table. I like what you said at the start 'save your money'
'i don't want to do that again'
But when he asked if you have QQ and you said 'yes' I prob would disagree.
I would have preferred if you came up with a smarter effort of deception.
Something like
'Possibly, you'll have to call to find out though...'
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08-03-2012, 06:48 PM
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#24
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enthusiast
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Calgary
Posts: 55
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Re: Was I over the line with my table talk?
I would have no problem with what you said if your opponent had engaged you in conversation, or it was your turn to act.... but once you have acted, and he is making his decision, I think he has the right to think in peace.
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08-04-2012, 12:05 AM
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#25
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banned
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 243
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Re: Was I over the line with my table talk?
what you did is wrong and unethical, you should give him back his money
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08-04-2012, 08:03 AM
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#26
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veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,250
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Re: Was I over the line with my table talk?
Quote:
Originally Posted by the_spike
I personally detest that sort of talk.
I'm fine with "fold it", "save your money", "careful now", etc etc
But I do not like "yes, I have a set of Q". That is flat out lying. Some say so it slowplaying and check raising. Those people are wrong. Playing deceptively is a necessary part of the game. It's basically the same thing as the quarterback extending the ball to the running back before dropping back to pass. It's standard, it's respectable.
What you did is not, IMO.
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Yeah, I'm in this camp. Furthermore, it's this con man act in poker that perpetuates the stigma that poker players are lying, scummy degenerates.
So you conned a guy out of a pot. Congrats. Many people (the ones you want to come back) feel the filth of the move and get turned off the game completely. What's that axiom about shearing sheep many times but only skinning them once?
If we ever want poker to be a respectable game, we're going to have to remove things like this from the game. I realize most don't care about that, and the image of being a ruthless cockbag at the table is macho on 2+2 and professing people should be gentleman is sissy (or whatever immature adjective you prefer), but integrity and image of the game is important to me. If you spend significant time at the tables as well, it should be important to you, too.
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08-04-2012, 10:47 AM
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#27
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old hand
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,762
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Re: Was I over the line with my table talk?
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Originally Posted by z4reio
...If we ever want poker to be a respectable game, we're going to have to remove things like this from the game. .....
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This reminds me of a quote, >50 years ago, from the GM of the Toronto Maple Leafs, after an enormous bench-clearing brawl on the ice which took >20 minutes (and the Toronto police dept) to quell: "If we don't put a stop to this sort of thing, we may have to print more tickets..."
Seriously, I think that one of the attractions of poker for many basically honest people is the chance to engage in deceptive behavior (within the rules and spirit of the game), in ways which they would never do in normal life.
Part of the skill (and fun) of live poker has always been in learning to judge when your opponent is lying (either verbally, physically, or simply by his betting).
Obviously, where the line is drawn on unacceptable poker speech or behavior is subject to debate and personal judgement. (Some people still think that anything goes, including outright cheating, others that any table talk - or even check-raising- is unethical.)
I believe that ALL table talk is banned in Britain; does this make their game better?
But making distinctions in table talk between simply acting strong ("Save your money!") and lying about your hand ("I have a set!") seems pretty artificial to me. I think that as players gain even limited experience, they learn that any table talk may very well be a fib, and that they should not automatically believe anything anyone says in that situation. I don't think that taking this kind of talk out of the game would change its respectability much, but I think it would certainly make it less colorful and less fun.
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08-05-2012, 05:23 PM
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#28
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An early out is...
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: DC
Posts: 6,745
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Re: Was I over the line with my table talk?
Quote:
Originally Posted by psandman
You were heads up in a cash game so talk is fine. Your particular statements I think are fair. Deception about the strength of your hand during the betting phase is an integral part of poker. If you pull this at showdown its out of line, during the wagering phase its legitimate.
That being said some people may think that it makes you a douche. But then again some people think check raising or betting heads up makes you a douche.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Donk Quixote
I have no problem with being deceptive about my hand with table talk, but in my opinion you shouldn't be deceptive about your intentions in the game in general. I mean you shouldn't pretend like you softplay someone when you really wouldn't if you had a big hand. I play in a lot of games where people are all friends and softplay each other HU, and I make it known that I'm not like that at all and don't want anyone to play me like that either.
It would be like if you have Ax, whiff the flop and then say "oh it's just me and you? OK, I'll check it down with you." while knowing that you would value bet the hell out of the guy if you had hit.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by calgary
I would have no problem with what you said if your opponent had engaged you in conversation, or it was your turn to act.... but once you have acted, and he is making his decision, I think he has the right to think in peace.
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I like all of these posts. I personally try not to be specific about my hand, regardless of whether I'm implying strength or weakness, fact or fiction. Like calgary said, I won't offer anything in this situation while my opponent is thinking except, "Dealer, clock please," if he takes WAY too long. If an opponent asks me a question, I'll put my head down and ignore it. If an opponent asks me a question after thinking for a while, I'll call for the clock.
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08-09-2012, 06:29 PM
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#29
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adept
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Hannah, Montana
Posts: 1,005
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Not out of line. Poker is a game of deception.
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08-09-2012, 06:49 PM
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#30
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old hand
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,353
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Re: Was I over the line with my table talk?
I think the "save your money" stuff is pretty standard table talk and not over the line... Of course, if you personally felt icky about it, there's no reason for you to engage in it. Plenty of very successful players never speak at the table, or only talk inbetween hands about stuff that is totally unrelated to poker, so you also shouldn't feel obligated to do something that makes you feel uncomfortable just because you fear that you might be at a disadvantage if you don't do every single thing you possibly could do at the table.
Also, I'd be careful about discussing your specific hand. Even in places that allow a fair amount of table talk, there might be rules relating to disclosing the contents of your hand. In some casinos, you can't say that you have a specific hand (whether you actually have that hand at all). In other casinos, you can say "I have x" as long as you have any hand other than x... So, just be aware of the casino rules to make sure you aren't breaking them...
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