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Old 02-06-2012, 03:49 AM   #106
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Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

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Originally Posted by jack492505 View Post
As has been mentioned a couple times in this thread, this is simply not true in many(most?) casinos.

There is a distinction between casinos where you are allowed to muck and win. I think its much more acceptable to force them to show or muck first because there is now some chance that your hand can indeed be good and you won't have to show. I still don't think I would make a big deal out of it because i think the overwhelming majority of the time its not worth it. But i could at least see some argument for refusing to show first in that case even when you thought you were good.
Bear in mind, every poker room rulebook I have ever seen says in one way or another that players who believe they have the winning hand should table it immediately at showdown.

So the general perspective of rulebook authors is that if you think you are good, you should show.
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Old 02-06-2012, 12:46 PM   #107
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Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

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Originally Posted by jack492505 View Post
just "what is the most +EV thing I can do this very moment"
So you enjoy loosing money? cause that's what this game is all about. making money.
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Old 02-06-2012, 12:52 PM   #108
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Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

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So you enjoy loosing money? cause that's what this game is all about. making money.
If that's what you got out of my post I simply can't do anything further to help you.
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Old 02-06-2012, 12:57 PM   #109
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Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

If its someone who i want to see thier cards (for whatever reason) ill just say "i called you" and look at them, will not flip my hand until i see thiers.
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Old 02-06-2012, 05:30 PM   #110
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Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

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Originally Posted by AngusThermopyle View Post
I just turn my hand over. Otherwise you will be sitting there for four years.
Wow this gem hidden in a host of replies [4 years after this thread got started]

I think most people are focused on the wrong thing here. The real question is: are you a winning or losing player?

If you are a winning player then the object of the game should be to play as many hands as possible. This won't be accomplished by calling the Floor over or by having the Dealer ultimately handle it [which most dealers are reluctant to do because it will likely affect their tips from one player or the other].

In fact, turning your hand over at the first signs of capitulation will get the next hand started sooner than any other tactic you can employ. It will also leave the other player less embarrassed and more beholden to you. It will also provide an environment where you will get the same benefit if you so desire to withhold a particular hand from the table after bluffing. Furthermore as a winning player you could probably deduce what the other guy has or just note the frequency at which he bluffs the river...

If you are a losing player I am going to guess that the real motivation behind making your opponent show is that it enables you to win something. The information obviously hasn't been helping you that much anyway. And it does does take extra time to let your opponent know who's the boss so you are kind of killing two birds with one stone.

Furthermore at 3/6 LHE are we seriously trying to figure out how somebody else is playing their hands? Do they even know? FTR I play 20/40 LHE regularly and there are very few players whose hands I would demand to see. Only out of reciprocal picque or maybe in a NL tournament to tweak somebody who has been bullying.
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Old 02-06-2012, 06:12 PM   #111
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Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

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Originally Posted by Howard Beale View Post
Grunching (just noticed who OP is).

<snip>

This doesn't bother me as much as it seems it does you. To me it's a minor aggravation compared to so many others and it happens so often that there's no stopping it. My suggestion is to just let it go and don't expect 'them' to understand the rules or to necessarily be considerate to the other players.
It actually doesn't bother me anymore. I bumped this thread because it was the first one I made on 2+2 and I didn't want it to be lost in the archives at the end of the month when the new software upgrade comes. (We can discuss that issue further in the low-content thread or ATF if people are interested in the details. You also can check the sticky thread in Other Other Topics for more info.)

It's been really fun seeing people's reactions to the thread and also how much my own views have changed through the influence of the community here and my experience at the tables.
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Old 02-06-2012, 06:42 PM   #112
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Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

I didn't realize it was an archive bump. I'm going to have to check OP dates for the next month . Still, it's interesting what a change of perspective can occur after a few years of experience.
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Old 02-06-2012, 08:10 PM   #113
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Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

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Originally Posted by SkinnyStax View Post
So you enjoy loosing money? cause that's what this game is all about. making money.
Actually, not that I buy into the frame that showing quick really costs us any money (the "information" isn't that valuable, whereas playing more hands an hour, if you are a winning player, IS valuable), but in actuality live poker is NOT about "making money" in the sense of squeezing every drop of EV out of the game. There are social conventions in live poker as well. Some of them are written in the rules (if you table a hand, someone else tables a better hand, and the dealer pushes the pot to you, you are supposed to speak up and give up that pot, even if nobody else at the table realizes the error), some of them are not but everyone understands them (you don't selectively chop, even though it might be +EV to do so).

If you view live poker as "all about making money" in the sense that you believe that you should push every tiny perceived EV edge at your disposal, even at the risk of alienating other players and slowing down the game, you actually DO NOT understand what live poker is "all about".
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Old 02-06-2012, 09:54 PM   #114
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Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

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Originally Posted by jack492505 View Post
If that's what you got out of my post I simply can't do anything further to help you.
i read your post. i read the whole thread. and you go and make some ridiculous statement that poker is not about making the most +ev decision. thats absurd on so many levels its just laughable.


but apparently lots of ppl itt like pissing money away for the sake of making ppl happy. i dont go to casinos to have a good time i go to win some sweet sweet $$$$$. if i wanted to go to a casino to have fun id play craps/blackjack. i play poker because i believe i have an edge over the majority that allows me to make money. who the **** doesnt want to make money? thats the root of this game...
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Old 02-06-2012, 09:59 PM   #115
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Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

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Originally Posted by SkinnyStax View Post
i read your post. i read the whole thread. and you go and make some ridiculous statement that poker is not about making the most +ev decision. thats absurd on so many levels its just laughable.
It's funny how someone thinking a level higher looks exactly like someone thinking a level lower.
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Old 02-07-2012, 02:13 AM   #116
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Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

I say "you got to muck or show". if they muck than you can scoop the pot w/o showing your hand (at least at every room i've played) which is usually better than seeing their hand as you know its a bluff anyways. if there's a particularly weird line they took and want to see what draw they were on if it was total air what they 3b with etc than I ask them to show first since they were called if it goes a couple seconds without showing. Never had any complaints or the floor to come... sometimes a discussion about etiquette breaks out for showing hands but I don't feel like its unfriendly in anyway. Its much worse to show your hand and than ask to see theirs even though they were suppose to show first anyways IMO and sometimes makes the table uncomfortable and can lose you some action/soft play later (or tilt them if you are trying to and it works for your game). Interesting point is that at some rooms even if you called some1s turn bet if river goes check/check and your first to act you have to open first so just something to consider if theres a reason why someone isn't showing in that situation habitually you should find out the casino rules (most i've played last agressor has to open 1st though).

Last edited by smoothcriminal99; 02-07-2012 at 02:19 AM.
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Old 02-07-2012, 01:10 PM   #117
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Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

Here's a similar situation, but at 5/10. Note that the rest of the table understood the convention immediately. They have zero patience for showdown staredowns. None of the stuff we see in these 1/2 threads.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/27.../#post31395766
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Old 02-07-2012, 06:05 PM   #118
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Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

Here's what I do that avoids some of the problems you mentioned.

I have a card protector on my cards and my hands are on my lap or otherwise not near my cards. I simply sit there and.... do nothing at all. Blank stare.

The dealer will take control eventually and you won't have to say anything douchey at all. Just sit and let the rules take care of themselves. If the dealer says "let's go guys" (which he shouldn't) just sit there.

Pretty soon everyone at the table will get the idea and it won't take very long on future hands. If the dealer is truly so clueless that he doesn't get it (rare, but possible) then wait for him to call the floor, or you can quietly suggest he call the floor to clear up whatever is causing the current confusing (again, avoid saying anything about the rules yourself, act semi-clueless. Just look confused as to what's taking so long.)

Either the dealer or the floor will explain it to the other players.
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Old 02-07-2012, 06:06 PM   #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AKQJ10 View Post
Assertive but not rude.
I agree, but some people confuse assertiveness with aggressiveness, and therefore rudeness. I prefer the silent approach. But to each his own.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lote View Post
What about just staring at them (1-2 minutes) until they flip over their hand?
Glancing over at a cocktail waitress or the TV is less aggressive. I'm simply there to play poker fairly and by the rules, is the impression I'm trying to give.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kailua View Post
Not sure of your point. I employ strategy precisely to entice opponents into “attempted” bluffs against me. Why would you want to embarrass them into tighter play?
This of course, is entirely logical and valid. Always ignore the rules (if ethical and allowed) if it's to your benefit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bernie View Post
Sometimes, albeit rarely, they'll actually fold a better hand.
Another really good point in favor of just flipping.

Last edited by Rapini; 02-07-2012 at 10:21 PM. Reason: merge
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Old 02-07-2012, 08:14 PM   #120
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Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

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Originally Posted by kyleb View Post
Well, no, I am not going to table my hand out of order. Change the rules of the poker room if you want that to happen.

The same people who won't turn their hands up in order and bitch about their hands are the same that will stall when you turn your hand up out of order.

I turn my hand up for the idiot fish who don't know any better; I am friendly with them and I want them to remain my customer. I am not stupid, I know how the ecosystem works.

But I do not extend this courtesy to nitty regs who I don't want in the game anyway. This group is the group that predominantly bets, gets called, then hems and haws. **** them. They aren't particularly good to win money from and they make the games worse. I am happy to see them go.
This.

I didn't realize I do this until I read this reply. I instinctively do this too.

ie... If a player is affecting the game in a bad way, I will use this as a bit of a needle to settle them. I do it politely, either in silence, or at times I'll use the "I called you" statement. Sometimes just waiting does the trick. My EV goes up with this player after this happens. They either target me, or fear me, or both, and I welcome it.

But when its a friendly fish who wasn't trying to angle, and I won't gain any edge by seeing their hand, I will table right away, or at least verbally declare my hand in a nice way. We move on quickly and all are happy.
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